Snoopy

Or is he talking about the double amputee from New Zealand that just reached the summit?

I have no real knowledge of Everest expeditions (other than reading Into Thin Air), but Sir Edmund Hillary really laid into the 40 plus climbers that passed this guy that died (does he not understand the dynamics of climbing Everest?). Also, Everestnews.com states that he was coming down from the Summit. Also, they say there are reports from climbers that summited on the 14th and 15th and reported seeing him in various worsening stages.

1AS

Summitting Everest is a pure ego trip, as there is no purpose other than to say, 'I did it". It's expensive, time-consuming, requires extreme preparation, and dangerous ( I think one dies for every 10 that make it). The guy who died apparantly ran out of oxygen, so we don't know if anybody had any to spare. But, it isn't relevant to the apathy of bystanders at accidnets, abductions, robberies, etc. We live in a world of selfish, frightened, apathetic idiots. Hence, my observation that "The world is full of as*holes".
On the other hand, some aren't, and I'm glad they populate this board. If you have the opportunity to save a life, take it. It not only gives you something to talk about at dinner, you develop a sense of self-esteem (that's different from being self-satisfied, grandiose, or arrogant). And, it's not that hard or complicated. It's just about not being too timid to act. Fundamentally, I think it's that factor that stops most people, but not Rennlisters, right? AS

JSMDMD

That is an interesting take on why people don't want to get involved Alex. People are timid in times of crisis it seems.
I had an EMT in my office today and told him about the accident Sunday night. I asked him if he regularly sees this lack of caring on the part of bystanders, and he had an interesting comment. Most people, when alone and confronted with a situation, will act because they is no one else to help, and they are easily identifiable as the only one available to help.
Placed in a group, they can become anonymous, and not offer any help.
The group helps to hide them in a way.
I would have thought that being in a group and not helping would be a shameful act for all to see. Any psychologists on here have a take on that?

1AS

I can certainly see that reasoning. Of the 3 out-of-the-hospital resuscitations I have done, one was on a subway (The "El" in Chicago), one was on the street, and one was at a concert (Ravinia).
All had plenty of bystanders. The concert was dark, and I was the only one who noticed the guy who slumped 2 rows in front of me.
On the El, I was wearing a white coat (first year med student at the time), and everybody seemed to sit back because there was seemingly a knowledgeable person-tho as a first year student, I knew absolutely nothing other than science. A guy weraing an army jacket did pitch in and help.
On the street, everybody just walked around the guy.
In the hospital, lots of people respond, but that is their life. Interestingly, having conducted dozens of emergency events, I never considered billing. I was amazed to find that some of my colleagues did. I always thought it was "just something we do".
This past year, in my tiny town, I was on the tennis court with a guy who fractured his skull and needed to get him evac'd, and then had to drive a neighbor in septic shock to a hospital- so all the race experience paid off. By the way, that was a 26 mile trip on I 94, over 100 mph, and never saw a cop (would have liked an escort)AS

USCHANDPOD

JSMDMD:

Sorry but I did not read the whole thread just your story. Are you an MD? Specialty?

Most people nowadays do not help. Unfortunately that includes physicians who have been shell shocked by the BS malpractice that is rampant. I always help out and most of the time it is out of the realm of my specialty (hand/wrist/elbow surgery). I have had the honor of saving 2 people. One in Catalina who was scuba diving and aspirated water. He was in full arrest and I did mouth to mouth. The real deal with my lips to his. He vomited while I was doing it. I know that is nasty but I judged the situation and felt I had to do it. He came to before the paramedics arrived. Full recovery. The other time was recently when a 80 year old woman choked on a piece of steak. It happened in a restaurant when I was in the bathroom. I came out to hear my wife yelling for me and to find the lady slumped over and blue with 2 people trying. I tried once and failed (I started to think horrible thoughts that she would die). I remembered back to basic CPR and took her out of the chair placed her supine, straddled her and gave a swift blow below the diaphragm. Voila it worked. Full recovery.

Perhaps in many ways these situations were more rewarding than my daily practice. Using your bare hands with no assistance is quite different than a stocked and staffed O.R. Anyway just as soon as I got back to my table the waitress gave me the $150 bill for dinner. The manager came over and said thanks for doing that and handed me a $25 gift certificate. I didn't do it for the money but it just shows you how much people value life and people doing the right thing. Most don't.

By the way in your case, chopper or not, the guy was FUBAR. For the rest of you putting off CPR/First aid classes remember this. 4-6 minutes without oxygen and you are brain dead. Average response time by paramedics is 4-10 minutes. The place and person you are most likely to use this on is a loved one in your own home.

Thanks for doing the right thing!

Snoopy

Just yesterday I was on Red Cross' website looking for CPR/First Aid classes in my neighborhood. Also, Glenn, great job regarding those two incidents you described. Amazing.

mdonline

JS:

You did a great thing. It would truly be apathetic if you didn't step up to help. As for the other people who are non medical, you can't really blame them for not offering to help. They were probably in shock, and besides, what could they possibly do. The man was bleeding and unconscious. They would do more damage to him by moving him out of the car. How many lay people know about airway or C-spine precaution? The man sounded like he had a massive head injury that little could be done to save him. Either that or major pelvic/abdominal injury in which case, an airlift might have saved his life. You did great by talking with him. Those are the last comforting words he might have heard.

I told my friend that I don't ever want to have to resustitate someone in the field without any equipment. What can I possibly do besides maintaining airway. But ****, they probably got blood in their airway, and without suction, it is next to no good. Without an intubation kit, it is hopeless. Without airway, the ballgame is over. Oh, but we used to joke that just about the only thing you can do as the first person who arrives at the scene that can save someone life is to stick a knife of any sharp object to the chest to relieve a tension pneumothorax. Try to explain that to the CHP when the guy turns up dead in the ER with a knife in his chest. Is that life saving or euthanasia? Good samaritan or good mercy law?

My other doctor friends who are trauma surgeon still maintain that if you come across an accident like that, and if you are not a trained medical personel, unless the car is about to fall off the cliff or catch on fire, it is not worth it to get involved. You would probably do more damage to the victim and get yourself exposed to blood that may harm you. Wait for the paramedics. On TV, they always show a hero pulling a victim out of a car just before it exploded. In real life, that rarely ever happens. The scenario like JSMDMD described is far more common. In those cases, unless you know what you are doing, leave the victim alone.

Enough said, I am glad you are doing ok. They will fix up that Porsche. You know, the 90k spent on that Porsche might have saved your life. If you were in a beat up pick up truck....things might have been different.

My sister was T bone on the driver side in her BMW 528 by a pick up truck. The guy was in a hospital for a week and my sister didn't have a scratch on her. I'll tell you, money may not buy happiness, but it sure can save your life.

German cars for me for life. You won't ever see me in any tin can Japanese cars.

USCHANDPOD

I don't neccesarily agree with everything that you have said but you are entitled to your opinion. My only advice to you is (since you clearly have the knowledge to do some good) to carry around several packs of sterile gloves, a CPR mask, and whatever else you need to render help. If you are in one of these situations and do nothing no one will know except you. If you watch someone die and do nothing about it you will have to live with that for the rest of your life. I would like to believe that you would feel bad about not helping. Hopefully you will never be faced with this situation outside of the hospital but if you do be prepared.

One other thing. In California I have called 911 at least a dozen times from my cell phone (Drunk drivers, sofas on the freeways, accidents etc.) In most cases there was a hold time of 5+ minutes. One time I called from the 405 freeway near Brentwood. 911 operator picked up when I got to work in East L.A. (12 minute hold time). Now my cell phone has the local police department emergency number programmed into it. I call them directly so there is no hold time. Even if I am out of town they can get me to the right person faster then me sitting on hold. Imagine if you were in a parking lot with a gunman circling and you were sitting on hold!!! BTW packing a loaded weapon is not a solution for me.

Just my $.02

mdonline

Oh, Please don't get me wrong. I agree with you. As a trained medical professional, you should do something. Clear the airway, maintain neutral spine, etc. But as a NON medical professional, it is better to just leave things alone unless there is immiment outside danger, ie, car is about to fall off the cliff, catch fire, in the line of anohter car crashing into it.

Human nature, at least, decent human being, is to do something to help. Trust me, if you don't know what you are doing, you will hurt the victim by moving him. You can easily convert someone from being partially paralyzed to full paralysis by moving him. But if the car is about to explode, then preventing certain death takes precedence.

For a while, I did carry a full intubation kit, with all fluids, meds and IV. When I was a resident, I even had a thoracotomy tray with me. For those of you who don't know what that is, that tray allows me to open someone chest in the field and let me get my hand around the heart to do manual compression!!! I saved three people that way in the ER, but they were all from gunshot wounds and not blunt trauma. Anyway, too much info for this forum...sorry guys. I am just passionate about what I do.

JSMDMD

Thanks for the kind comments....
I am a dentist. so while I have seen some trauma, it is usually the "Johnny hit his mouth on the side of the pool" type, not the kind you MD's see in the ER.
I knew to keep the airway open, control the bleeding and maintain a neutral neck position, but the actual sight of this poor guys head wound was something I had never seen before.
Even though I don't have the experience you guys do with this, I had a feeling he was FUBAR at the time.. I am glad that I did try to help him though.

The mans funeral was today in Illinois. He is survived by his 16 month old child, girlfriend, parents, siblings, and grandparents. I left a message with his brother today, to tell him that his brother wasn't alone when he was dying. That hopefully will give the family some comfort and closure. I think it will help me as well to speak to him.
Your mention of helping the man who was choking brought back an incident that happened to me a few years ago. I was in a restaurant with a friend having dinner, and noticed an older man a few tables away choking. His son attempted to do the Heimlich on him and failed. The son ran out to get help, so I went over to the man, did the Heimlich on him and dislodged whatever was blocking his airway. He mouthed thanks, the other 6 people at his table said thanks, and I sat down to finish my dinner. About a minute later, in races his son with the manager, to do who knows what. They see the man sitting down continuing with his meal, find out what happened, come over and say thanks. Their group finished, paid their bill and left.
We finished, were given our bill, paid and left. My friend mentioned later that she thought that the son or the manager would have offered to pay for our dinner, get us some dessert, a cup of coffee.....
I think I said something profound, like virtue is its' own reward....
Of course, my friend did reward me with a pretty wild night afterwards, but that is for another thread....

JSMDMD

We do have a great car in our 911's. Had it not been for the other out of control cars, mine would have been fine. A couple of thousand miles of track time and a wonderfully engineered car did pay off!
And it's at the body shop now, getting ready for some summer fun.....

I am making one change though in the way I drive. I am not going to let my kids, or anyone else for that matter, ride in the back seat. No head rests, no airbags, no side beams to protect the rear seat passenger..... Not the safest place to be I think.

Now if we could only get Porsche to agree, they could get rid of the back seats and put a bigger engine in the car......

USCHANDPOD

IS THIS REALLY TRUE? I am not doubting you but it makes me feel a lot concerned about my 2 and 4 year old in the back. Not good news at all.

By the way great job on the choking. I too have an incident like yours on the road. Coming back from UCSD when I was a freshman a guy passed me at 125mph (drunk marine) and went airborne across the whole freeway only to land right in front me upside down. I saw it coming so I was traveling at 50mph waiting for the guy to eat it. I was alone and it was 11pm near pendleton. The guy was belted in his car upside down with massive brain injury and bleeding. Probably a broken neck too. It felt like 3 weeks before medics arrived. I did not move him for fear of snapping his neck further. I monitored his pulse until it stopped. Medics had just arrived pulled him out and did nothing. I could not believe it. I later learned that the likelihood of survival with a traumatic full cardiac arrest in the face of a head injury is <<<<1%. What a night. I learned so much about the desparate feeling of not being able to help someone. But I too felt like I comforted him at the time of death.

Keep up the great work!!

mdonline

The worst thing that have ever seen was in Napa about 2 years ago. The truck in front of me just swirled and rolled on the embankment several times landing up side down. I ran out of my car to find a man still restrained by the seat belt hanging upside down. Blood was everywhere. He was unconscioius. So I tried to talk to him to get some response from him.

Another person came up behind me and tapped me on the shoulder and told me not to bother. He pointed to me a junk of red stuff on the pavement about 20 feet behind the car. It was the man's brain and brainstem!

Man, I am a hardened man and I have seen everything, but it took me a few days to get over that.

I think he had a heart attack or a stroke and lost control of the car. Urgghhrr....

clif

I read this when you first posted it and wasn't going to comment. I just reread it and couldn't help think of what Sir Edmund Hillary (of climbing fame) said last week when several climbers including one who lost his legs even though others risked their lives to save his, walked right by a guy who was dying and left him on the mountain. He said " to not help breaks the code of the mountain climber and we have lost our humanity". I alsmost lost my wife, i did however lose a child 01-01- 1983. There were so many people who helped and they helped us adopt a newborn two months later. i have been a volunteer in the local ambulance squad since just after that date. As an EMT driver first responder etcetera. It is usually sad but i don't mind helping. It is very rewarding. Sorry for your accident.