Ben, yes, some small rock or something. We were in the midst of a nice Sunday afternoon ride when - wham - the windshield cracked. It's annoying, but still a minor thing overall. A couple of years ago, some idiot threw a beer bottle at me while I was driving and that thing took out the whole windshield and showered us in glass.

I already talked to the dealer and they will try to take care of it without having to replace the windshield; but even the latter would be okay.

 

I haven't had any troubles with the brush (and I've recently purchased a 1000 watt halogen light so I can see the paint surface really well). The trick with the Boars Hair brush is that you push LIGHTLY with just the tips. If you push so hard that you are dragging the sides, then you will get scratches.

Just like a mitt, you can't use it twice either. You have to rinse it out each time.

If used properly, they are great. The boars hair brush is especially great for the bottom half of the car where the water rarely gets all of the heavy grime and the mitt typically has too much gunk on it after a 1/2 inch wipe.

I was turned on to the Griots Boars Hair brush by a guy who does the cars for the LeMay museum. He does black cars that are 40 plus years old with the orginal concours quality paints, so he'd be killed if he put a scratch in them. He won't use anything but a boars hair brush, but he's quick to point out that if you use so much pressure that you are using the sides instead of the tips of the bristles then you may as well be using a dirty mitt because you'll scratch big time.

I also won't use wool mits anymore. I much prefer microfiber mits like this:

http://www.autopia-carcare.com/son-dwmitt.html

These are great because you can actually see the smallest particles of dirt when you pick them up, and you know when you've rinsed if your mitt is 100% clean. Big fluffy wool mits are hard to get 100% clean, so it is easier to have a stray piece of sand or dirt that can cause a tiny scratch.

I now use two microfiber mits like the one above and a boars hair brush and am having excellent results. I also use just the boars hair brush for a quick clean instead of doing a quick detailer because I find that even after using a new clean duster I get some light scratches when quick detailing, and the boars hair brush is fast and effective, even if I do have to spend more time drying.

 

Then he's an idiot to use something that will scratch "big time" if you happen to accidently turn the bristles the wrong way! Why would anyone in their right mind (keyword here) even want to run that risk when there are far superior washing products out there.

As I pointed out in my first linked thread below the very best product for washing the delicate paint of our p-cars is the Australian long-haired sheepskin mitt. You never run the risk of scratching your paint with it regardless of the direction of movement.

 

When I say big time - I don't mean like deep scratches. I mean light marks that you could polish out with one pass using something like Griots Garage Machine Polish 4.

To each their own though. I find the Boars Hair and thin pile micro-fiber mits to be better than any sheepskin mitt I've used to date.

I just confirmed the sheepskin mitt that I stopped using was indeed a 100% Austrailian long-haired mitt. It cost me $18 and until I used the microfiber mitts, I swore by it. However, I get WAY more scratches with that mitt than I do with the micros and the boars hair.

 

Either you're lying or you must be doing something SERIOUSLY wrong to get scratches with a sheepskin mitt. It's one or the other, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're telling the truth. In which case, there is something seriously wrong in your detailing techniques. And you are doing more harm to your car every time you touch it, whether you realize it or not. I don't know what it is but when you scratched your car using some of the finest detailing clay that one time, Deanski (a professional detailer) and I pointed out to you that you are doing something terribly such as using a clay bar after dropping it on the ground. Your poor car's finish is gradually being destroyed by your very own hands!

I'm serious Ron, your techniques are all wrong if you're getting scratches using the finest sheepskin mitts.

(Pssst, folks, whatever you do, do not try his techniques at home. If he's happy with the results, fine. But copy him at your own risk. For recommended tips and procedures, follow the lead of the pros such as Deanski and others here.)

 

Okay, I'm going to try to leave the emotion out of this and just state a few things.

1. The clay that scratched came fresh out of the box - IT WAS NEVER DROPPED. Perhaps there was lots of crud on the trunk and I just didn't see it in the clay, but something happened. As I mentioned in that post, I didn't see the same problem on the hood. I used Griots Garage clay on the other half of my trunk a week later and had no scratching problems. One person I talked to suggested that the scratches could have been there all along and they just weren't visible until the car was clayed and cleaned. I'm not sure, but either way I'm sticking to the Griots clay instead.

2. I don't believe the mitt itself is responsible for the scratches, but what I find with the 100% sheepskin mitts is that they are harder to rinse 100% clean, so despite my best efforts I end up with some small piece of grit somewhere along the way that leaves a mark (one that requires direct sunlight or 1000 watt halogens to see - not a serious scratch). I have found that I don't have this problem with the short pile microfiber mitts, so they are my preference. If they work better for me, then why do you care?

3. Boars hair brushes are like talking about politics, Vette -vs- 911, or religion - they always spark heated debates. I'm here to say that the way I use the boars hair brush has been safe for me and hasn't left any marks to date. I find it to be helpful tool to me, but just like a polisher if used improperly it can leave marks. I do not recommend them for people who aren't pateient enough to rinse it frequently or who brush their teeth so hard that the bristles get bent.

I should also state that I am obsessive compulsive when it comes to cleaning and swirl marks. I'm quite confident that if most of the people on this forum were to look at my car they'd think it is in concours ready condition, but I look at my car very carefully under 1000 watt halogen lights to try to spot any imperfections so I can deal with them.

As I've stated before, years ago I used to be a paid detailer myself. I also entered my car in car shows and recieved awards, despite not having the coolest car (a 1986 Oldsmobile Calais) due to the perfect condition of my car.

While it is true I took a 10 year break from detailing and am just now getting back into it all, I'm not the complete idiot you portray me to be. I am also simply sharing my results with the people on this forum. Like any advice here people should take it at their own risk, like they should with yours as well.

At the end of the day people have to experiement with different products and techniques and use what is best for them. You recommend Klasse paint sealants and some people swear all paint sealants (including Klasse) are the antichrist because they feel that sealants diminish the true color and luster of the paint. I'm open minded and will experiment with my 6 year old Mercedes to form my own opinions of what I like best.

 

Ronmart: Nice response, and helpful. I, too, have been using a sheepskin mitt, but just ordered microfiber mitts. While I am not as compulsive as many on this forum, I do use halogen quartz lights to pick up swirls and marks. I have been using Clay Magic bars and have a Griots bar that I have not used. DO you find a differnece in the clay bars? Also, do you use the Griots 1-2-3 polishes, and if so, how often do you use 1 and/or 2? I have used Klasse AIO and Glaze for 20 years but just got Griots sealer. Have you used it?

Finally, to put my lower level of compulsivity into perspective, I actually have used Kozak cloth on my cars, although they have been downgraded to wheels since I got a PC.

 

One of the drawbacks to the microfiber mitt is in the very nature of the loop construction. It's great for absorbing water but these tiny loops can actually form a mechanical means of trapping particles that can potentially scratch your paint as you drag the mitt across it. I point this out in greater detail in my thread on car washing tips, linked below.

The long independent fibers of the sheepskin mitt, on the other hand, cannot mechanically capture and trap these scratch producing particles. These particles, once loosened, become suspended in the soap solution and are drawn in by the capillary action of the soap-soaked fibers as you work the mitt gently across the surface, allowing the weight of the soaked mitt alone to do the work without applying external pressure. (Incidentally, one should never apply pressure when using any soap applicator and one should never use a "scrubbing" action either. That's just asking for scratches.) To release these suspended particles it's a simple matter of dipping the sheepskin mitt in your soap bucket which will instantly spread the fibers apart and applying quick vigorous twisting rotations to shake them loose. Again, I point this out in greater detail in my thread.

The advantage of the microfiber mitt is that it lasts longer (i.e. more economical) and can be thrown in the washing machine for easy cleaning. The sheepskin mitt, on the other hand, is delicate and will fall apart quickly if you neglect it and are not careful in preserving it (ask me how I know). They don't last as long, maybe a year at the most, but they are the most delicate soap applicators that your paint finish will ever come in contact with. When it comes to taking care of my paint finish, cost is no object, and I don't economize either.

As for visual inspection, the best tools I have found are banks of fluorescent lighting or direct sunlight, and 3X magnification reading glasses for close inspection.

 

I haven't used Clay Magic, but I do find a huge difference in the Sonus Ultrafine and the Griots. The Griots is much easier to work with and I believe is less abrasive. The Sonus requires a lot of kneading to get it softened up.

I use Griots 2 for deeper scratches and I don't even own 1. I figure if 2 can't get it out, then I'll just fill it with wax and it'll only be noticable to me or when under the high powered lights. I also use 3 quite a bit as it is really good and I bought 4 (new this month), but I really don't see the need for it. I also don't find their Best of Show wax to be as good as caranauba. It is good, but I much prefer P21s or their Caranuba wax instead.

I haven't tried the Kozak cloth and probably won't since I'm pretty happy with the blue Sonus microfiber towels (of which I have 8 dedicated to individual parts of the 911 only).

Let me know what you think of the microfiber mitt and tell me if you agree with my thoughts. Personally I wouldn't use any other mitt on the 911 or my Mercedes now that I've gotten hooked on them. I just like being able to see for certain that I'm dirt free before touching my paint with it.

 

I totally agree with your advice on the proper techniques of using a mitt. I also was a big fan of sheepskin mitts for a long time, so I definitely don't think they are evil. I just like the microfiber better now. Perhaps I wasn't preserving my mitt properly, so I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on that as that could have played a role in the issues i found with my mitt. I did replace mine annually though, and they were certainly the best when they were new.

I'd be willing to conduct an experiment and use the sheepskin (which do you use) on one half of the car and the microfiber on the other half for several months and see how they compare over time.

I agree that banks of flourescent lighting are the best, but I don't have a place to mount those in my garage so I use 1000 watt halogens. They work very well but have the drawback of being directional and very hot. As a result, it is usually best to only have them on when needed for close inspection as I'd consider their heat to be equivalent to direct sunlight.

I agree with the 3x mag tip too. I haven't tried the reading glasses though. I've used the product that Griots sells as well as a hand held magnifying glass and both work fine with proper lighting, but I can see how the hands free use of the reading glasses could be very helpful.

 

Ben: Thanks for your input. I did read your thread, but was curious about ronmart's experiences, too.I am realizing I have a loooong ways to go to be as attentive as you guys. For example, I have never used soap on my cars, aleways just water wash and blaster dry. Is it safer to use a washing solution as you recommend?

 

As I point out in my thread I use two sheepskin mitts. The older one (last year's new) for the lower, dirtier panels, and the newer one for the top body panels.

After washing I rinse by dunking them in a bucket full of clean water, I then gently squeeze from the top down, hand under fist, and then I rinse once more, never wringing or stressing the natural pelt. I then pat them down with an old clean towel and allow to dry on another dry towel or chamois. After a few hours I'll fip them to dry on the other side and use the palm of my hand to comb the fibers down. When they're completely dry (usually next day) I'll comb the hairs once more by hand and tuck them neatly in a designated drawer, right next to my detailing towels. It's important to keep the dust off them. ... And that's what I learned through trial and error as the best way to preserve them.

The reading glasses are great for hands-free close up work. The only drawback is that the focal depth of field is very limited and so I need to be about 4 to 6 inches from the surface. And also when I lift my head up to see what's going on around me, I'm as blind as a bat.Yikes!!!

Yes, by all means, use a quality car wash soap, sometimes referred to as car shampoo.

As I also point out in my thread, soap does two things for you. First, through chemical action (ionic action) it breaks up and loosens and dissolves the bond the dirt has on any material object. Secondly, it serves to lubricate your wash mitt as you glide it over your finish.

 

Cool, like I said, I'll buy a new one and try it out on one side of my car. Which one do you use? (can you send a link?) I want to make sure I'm using the same exact one.

I personally like Griots Garage car shampoo the best (http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog....001&SKU=11102). It seems to be more lubricated than others and seems to work better than others I've tried. I know lots of people like P21s car shampoo too.

Just to prove I'm not a complete dolt, I've attached pictures of my car after I washed it today. Sure its only 3 months old, but I think its got a pretty good shine to it.

 

Car looks real chiny! I always enjoy seeing clean cars.

A sheepskin mitt is the only thing I won't buy online, or sight-unseen. Being a natural product with no control on variation a sheepskin mitt is one thing I need to inspect by hand and feel the lay of the nap in order to select the softest and best of the bunch. But generally the best of these come from the land of Oz, and so I select from among the finest Australian mitts that my local detail shop carries.

That Griots Garage car shampoo sounds like a great product, especially if it has high lubricity.

 

If you don't mind, then I'd happily pay you (including a service charge for your effort) via a check mailed to you or paypal if you send me one you think is the best.

You'll love the Griots shampoo, and if you don't they'll give your money back -- even if you change your mind 6 months from now. I'm fortunate enough to live 90 minutes from where they have their only retail store (in Tacoma, WA) and they do free 1:1 clinics where you can try any product they have on your vehicle along with a tech who will show you how to use any of their products. It is really fun and I've become a complete Griots junkie.

I also met Richard Griot and he's our kind of guy. He uses his products for his and his freinds cars that compete in Pebble Beach and he was so hell bent on using the best products years ago that he started his own company to make products better than he felt he could buy at the time.

He was there with his brand new Ford GT with the classic racing colors (kinda like mexico blue and orange with white circles where you can paint your numbers).

There stuff is more expensive, but it seems to be excellent for just about everything. Of the products I've tried, the only products that haven't impressed me have been the spray on wax, machine polish 4, and their microfiber drying towels.

While we are the subject of mitts, they make a cool liittle 4 finger mitt for your wheels that I like for cleaning inside my rims (esp between the brakes and the inside of the rim):

http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=10209

It doesn't look that good in the picture, but it is really good in real life and it is 100% genuine lambskin. I LOVE this thing (for wheels only).