Non Rennlist Members and the Reasons Why They Remain So.
11-08-2005, 03:58 AM
#31
I was on the Benz boards for a long time. I don't think it's even possible to "join". As far as I know their expenses are paid by advertisers. How much could it possibly cost to run this? Anyway not long ago someone asked me why I wasn't a paying member here. I was about to join just to shut him up but now I'm having second thoughts about it.
11-08-2005, 04:15 AM
#32
Track Day
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems to me membership is for folks who will use the extras that membership provides. Personally after reading a couple of threads about the topic, on a board that has a lot of trouble loading, I'm fed up with the whole vibe here and am bailing. Porsche's are fun. This board is not.
11-08-2005, 04:31 AM
#33
Originally Posted by OCBen
What I would like to see is a detailed income statement showing where our dues dollars are being spent. I think we paying members are entitled to that, don't you? If not an income statement then a simple pie chart will do. ... If being a paid member is not going to make a difference one way or the other in the performance of this site, then I can do without the bragging rights.
I always wonder at people who guilt-trip others into getting a membership as I don't agree with it. In your case, now you have performed a perfect u-turn and admitted that it is in fact for bragging rights it just gets worse.
I think to sum up this was an ill-advised theread with an even worse twist at the end.
I personally think that if indeed John D and Jen get any profit out of this then that is totally fair because they are providing a service, one that I am happy (but not obliged) to pay for.
11-08-2005, 07:50 AM
#34
Originally Posted by Chris Stack
If you will let a non-Porsche-owning, non-Rennlist-paying lurker speak his mind for a moment...
This is the only of half-dozen or so boards I read/participate on that even has the option of being a paying member. Many have sponsorships, and if you advertise your product on the board you are expected to become one or you will lose the advertising priviledge. I can even understand stretching that to the classifieds, since someone is making some money through the hard work of others. But when posters berate each other into paying $14 or whatever it is a year, it is really heavyhanded and detracts A LOT from the quality of the board, IMO. Honestly, the people who brag about their multiple accounts in their signatures seem kind of ridiculous too; you wouldn't put how much money you donated to the Red Cross or your Alma Mater in your profile, why brag about this? When you are that public about it, it makes your motives seem questionable.
I'm fairly certain if running this board was becoming a financial burden, the organizers would let people know. If they wanted this to be a business and turn a profit, they'd charge everyone. But they don't. So when a new poster comes on and asks a question about a Porsche, and regulars (members) start to harrass him about becoming a member, what sort of image does that portray to him about the marque? I'm willing to bet the kind of person who will search the web and discuss Porsches online is the type of enthusiast you do want to attract (as opposed to the poseur who buys his car for the status), and then you inadvertantly try to run him off with elitism. I own (stock) Japanese cars, and participate in some of those message boards, so I am well aware of the online asshattery that is not present here. But the snobbery that is present in the "why aren't you a member?" posts/threads is a big black mark on an otherwise excellant board.
So support the board if it's important to you. If you think the membership fee is so trivial and that someone is screwing the organizers by not paying for theirs, just pay yours twice. But then STFU about it, because complaining makes it not about the board, but about your own feelings on how the board should be run, and most of us don't get to make that decision.
Disclaimer: this is not intended to be a response to any person or forum in particular, but rather to address a relatively common vibe on the board.
-Chris
This is the only of half-dozen or so boards I read/participate on that even has the option of being a paying member. Many have sponsorships, and if you advertise your product on the board you are expected to become one or you will lose the advertising priviledge. I can even understand stretching that to the classifieds, since someone is making some money through the hard work of others. But when posters berate each other into paying $14 or whatever it is a year, it is really heavyhanded and detracts A LOT from the quality of the board, IMO. Honestly, the people who brag about their multiple accounts in their signatures seem kind of ridiculous too; you wouldn't put how much money you donated to the Red Cross or your Alma Mater in your profile, why brag about this? When you are that public about it, it makes your motives seem questionable.
I'm fairly certain if running this board was becoming a financial burden, the organizers would let people know. If they wanted this to be a business and turn a profit, they'd charge everyone. But they don't. So when a new poster comes on and asks a question about a Porsche, and regulars (members) start to harrass him about becoming a member, what sort of image does that portray to him about the marque? I'm willing to bet the kind of person who will search the web and discuss Porsches online is the type of enthusiast you do want to attract (as opposed to the poseur who buys his car for the status), and then you inadvertantly try to run him off with elitism. I own (stock) Japanese cars, and participate in some of those message boards, so I am well aware of the online asshattery that is not present here. But the snobbery that is present in the "why aren't you a member?" posts/threads is a big black mark on an otherwise excellant board.
So support the board if it's important to you. If you think the membership fee is so trivial and that someone is screwing the organizers by not paying for theirs, just pay yours twice. But then STFU about it, because complaining makes it not about the board, but about your own feelings on how the board should be run, and most of us don't get to make that decision.
Disclaimer: this is not intended to be a response to any person or forum in particular, but rather to address a relatively common vibe on the board.
-Chris
Moreover, I have detected a tone of elitism on the part of a small minority of members. I have seen some members dismiss the views of a non-member with a derisive comment like "he's not even a member." Although I feel sorry for the member, but to me one of the most amusing posts I've read on this Board was by a member who was scammed by another member, and he couldn't believe that a fellow member would be so unscrupulos.
Bottom line is that this is a great Board with lots of knowledgeable and helpful posters. If there is need for additional funds to keep this Board operational, let's let this effort be conducted by those who run this site and not by members.
11-08-2005, 10:06 AM
#35
Super Duper Moderator
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Originally Posted by NoSubEDU
...Moderators tend to be free. ...
Someone at least has to buy me dinner.
Marc
p.s. I don't think this should be moved to OT as there are some excellent points being made by both members and users.
11-08-2005, 11:21 AM
#37
Banned
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Christer
For f*cks sake. You start off on your high horse and now it ends with this. Its 5 frikking cents per day according to you, if you don't want to pay then don't. Membership doesn't give you ANY rights because it is totally voluntary, its not actually a membership - it's actually more of a donation.
I always wonder at people who guilt-trip others into getting a membership as I don't agree with it. In your case, now you have performed a perfect u-turn and admitted that it is in fact for bragging rights it just gets worse.
I think to sum up this was an ill-advised theread with an even worse twist at the end.
I always wonder at people who guilt-trip others into getting a membership as I don't agree with it. In your case, now you have performed a perfect u-turn and admitted that it is in fact for bragging rights it just gets worse.
I think to sum up this was an ill-advised theread with an even worse twist at the end.
My initial stance was based on insufficient information, namely that the performance of this site was directly dependent on membership dues. The more I learned the more I realized this may not be the case after all. I'm not one to stubbornly adhere to one set position in the face of new information that clearly refutes that stance.
I think the solution lies in replacing the word "member" with the word "sponsor" so that no one feels pressured into making a donation that is clearly voluntary. This will also help remove any of the elitism that leads to resentment.
11-08-2005, 11:27 AM
#38
Banned
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by fast1
Bottom line is that this is a great Board with lots of knowledgeable and helpful posters. If there is need for additional funds to keep this Board operational, let's let this effort be conducted by those who run this site and not by members.
11-08-2005, 11:33 AM
#39
.org
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 7,635
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<I think the solution lies in replacing the word "member" with the word "sponsor">
How about "guest".
as in when I invite you all over for dinner the polite guests bring a little something to show their appreciation.
How about "guest".
as in when I invite you all over for dinner the polite guests bring a little something to show their appreciation.
11-08-2005, 11:37 AM
#40
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Jusat a couple of things I think need to be clarified.
o Benefits of Membership - email (if you need it) web space, signatures, ability to post ads and play in off-topic and a warm feeling that you've done something worthwhile.
o Need for Support - John D has posted a couple of times that he is now working three jobs to keep this site up. Lots of servers and high bandwidth costs real money.
o Why not sponsors? - John made it clear from the outset that he would not finance his site with a plethora of pop-up ads like some other sites. With the traffic generated here, he could easily bring in a bunch of advertisers but he prefers to keep his site "pure".
o Rennlist is an Outgrowth - Of a mail list which runs to this day. The Mail List was and is a place where people share information about Porsches. The depth of technical expertise is astonishing. Many of the same people also post here. The mail list is a simple Lyris application which does not need anywhere near as much bandwidth as these forums. John wanted to keep the friendly non-commercial atmosphere of the list - even in this more appealing and bandwidth intensive format.
o Rennlist has saved - Me thousands of dollars. That's why I am happy to support it for a trivial amount per year.
Regards,
o Benefits of Membership - email (if you need it) web space, signatures, ability to post ads and play in off-topic and a warm feeling that you've done something worthwhile.
o Need for Support - John D has posted a couple of times that he is now working three jobs to keep this site up. Lots of servers and high bandwidth costs real money.
o Why not sponsors? - John made it clear from the outset that he would not finance his site with a plethora of pop-up ads like some other sites. With the traffic generated here, he could easily bring in a bunch of advertisers but he prefers to keep his site "pure".
o Rennlist is an Outgrowth - Of a mail list which runs to this day. The Mail List was and is a place where people share information about Porsches. The depth of technical expertise is astonishing. Many of the same people also post here. The mail list is a simple Lyris application which does not need anywhere near as much bandwidth as these forums. John wanted to keep the friendly non-commercial atmosphere of the list - even in this more appealing and bandwidth intensive format.
o Rennlist has saved - Me thousands of dollars. That's why I am happy to support it for a trivial amount per year.
Regards,
11-08-2005, 11:37 AM
#41
Banned
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by PTpeecar
How about "guest".
as in when I invite you all over for dinner the polite guests bring a little something to show their appreciation.
as in when I invite you all over for dinner the polite guests bring a little something to show their appreciation.
11-08-2005, 12:02 PM
#42
Nordschleife Master
I think the question OCBen and others that are paid members are really wanting to know is...........
Would this site survive if that small minority of us that have contributed $$$ would stop contributing? In otherwords, is the $$$ we donate to become paid members really making a big difference or is to keep a small number of retail sponsors off the boards to keep it "pure"?
I would think that if there was another way to raise funds without fear of attack if you don't donate then the site would become a more friendly place (more friendly than it already is).
Seriously, how many of us show the public what he have donated $$$ to? I don't carry around my NPR card, PBS, or any of the othter organizations or charities that I give to over the year. Why should it be any different here?
My vote is to remove the title from above our avitar. Just a screen name and pic would be fine. That way, NOBODY is identified as a "member".
If you feel the right thing to do is to support the site, then do it. If you want the benefits that come with supporting the site, then do it. But, don't feel that you need recognition for donating a whopping $18!!!!! And that is what it comes down to......a whole $18. But, the thing most tend to overlook is that NOT everbody in the forum has a $100K car. We have people that bought $500 fixer upers all the way to $500K CGT's! And guess what? I have seen MANY in the CGT forum that own a CGT that are NOT members. What does that tell you?
Discrimination at its' finest rears its ugly head here every day. So ask yourself, what can you do to make a difference? I know what I would suggest (re-read my post)............what about you?
Would this site survive if that small minority of us that have contributed $$$ would stop contributing? In otherwords, is the $$$ we donate to become paid members really making a big difference or is to keep a small number of retail sponsors off the boards to keep it "pure"?
I would think that if there was another way to raise funds without fear of attack if you don't donate then the site would become a more friendly place (more friendly than it already is).
Seriously, how many of us show the public what he have donated $$$ to? I don't carry around my NPR card, PBS, or any of the othter organizations or charities that I give to over the year. Why should it be any different here?
My vote is to remove the title from above our avitar. Just a screen name and pic would be fine. That way, NOBODY is identified as a "member".
If you feel the right thing to do is to support the site, then do it. If you want the benefits that come with supporting the site, then do it. But, don't feel that you need recognition for donating a whopping $18!!!!! And that is what it comes down to......a whole $18. But, the thing most tend to overlook is that NOT everbody in the forum has a $100K car. We have people that bought $500 fixer upers all the way to $500K CGT's! And guess what? I have seen MANY in the CGT forum that own a CGT that are NOT members. What does that tell you?
Discrimination at its' finest rears its ugly head here every day. So ask yourself, what can you do to make a difference? I know what I would suggest (re-read my post)............what about you?
11-08-2005, 12:11 PM
#43
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Dell,
Not a bad idea, but it would make the mods job harder. Non members are not allowed to post ads for example. It would be tedious to have to check a database to see if someone was a member or not. Fact is I don't see any reason for frequent users not to be members. And yes, it does create a class system but, so what? I think the people who make the most noise are the ones who feel guilty about enjoying rennlist without contributing to its support. Many of us worry that john might get fed up with working three jobs to finance Rennlist. Then what happens? We all move to six speed or rennteam? I like the non commerical nature of Rennlist, more like a club than a business, but that's just MHO.
Best,
Not a bad idea, but it would make the mods job harder. Non members are not allowed to post ads for example. It would be tedious to have to check a database to see if someone was a member or not. Fact is I don't see any reason for frequent users not to be members. And yes, it does create a class system but, so what? I think the people who make the most noise are the ones who feel guilty about enjoying rennlist without contributing to its support. Many of us worry that john might get fed up with working three jobs to finance Rennlist. Then what happens? We all move to six speed or rennteam? I like the non commerical nature of Rennlist, more like a club than a business, but that's just MHO.
Best,
11-08-2005, 12:15 PM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Rob, you are too funny. Thanks for lightening up the tone a bit
I'd hate to figure out what my 3K posts or your 4K posts cost us incomewise???? It's like looking up my recipets for all the damn mods I have done to the car and realizing I could have bought a nice CPO Boxster!
I'd hate to figure out what my 3K posts or your 4K posts cost us incomewise???? It's like looking up my recipets for all the damn mods I have done to the car and realizing I could have bought a nice CPO Boxster!