Winter tires noise
10-18-2021, 09:38 AM
#1
Winter tires noise
Hi everyone,
I'd like to get some thoughts on the following observation and whether you've experienced the same or you could offer some explanation. I drive 997.2 base Carrera 4 Cabrio 6-sp manual. I just switched from my summer (Vredestein) to winter tires. To be specific, I bought a well preserved original set of original Porsche 911 wheels with winter Pirellis Sottozeros (they have plenty of profile, but they are 7 yrs old) with the correct offset spec (8Jx19 ET57 front, 11Jx19 ET51 rear) to be used as my dedicated winter set. After driving a bit, I immediately noticed the cabin noise to be much much higher, to the point that I felt like reaching my hearing tolerance (booming/drone like sound). When I talked to the fellow I bought wheels and tires from (that's his business), he suggested that I drive a bit more as tires might have to "adjust" to the new car. We both speculated that the age of tires could have something to do with it as well, as the wheels are properly balanced and I'm getting no unusual feedback through my steering wheel that would suggest otherwise. I have no problems buying a new set of winter tires, but would like to understand what might be contributing to the "road noise" such that I could hardly hear my engine running at speeds between 50-100mph. I understand that sound insulation with Cabrios does not compare to coupes, but the switch from summer to winter radials is like day and night and I hope it is the age of tires as the main culprit. Tires have plenty of thread left (75% left on all tires). I have owned previously several 911 coupes (997.1 C2 manual, 997.2 and 992.2 Turbo S models), but never experienced this level of winter tire noise (of course, never bought used tires before).
I'd like to get some thoughts on the following observation and whether you've experienced the same or you could offer some explanation. I drive 997.2 base Carrera 4 Cabrio 6-sp manual. I just switched from my summer (Vredestein) to winter tires. To be specific, I bought a well preserved original set of original Porsche 911 wheels with winter Pirellis Sottozeros (they have plenty of profile, but they are 7 yrs old) with the correct offset spec (8Jx19 ET57 front, 11Jx19 ET51 rear) to be used as my dedicated winter set. After driving a bit, I immediately noticed the cabin noise to be much much higher, to the point that I felt like reaching my hearing tolerance (booming/drone like sound). When I talked to the fellow I bought wheels and tires from (that's his business), he suggested that I drive a bit more as tires might have to "adjust" to the new car. We both speculated that the age of tires could have something to do with it as well, as the wheels are properly balanced and I'm getting no unusual feedback through my steering wheel that would suggest otherwise. I have no problems buying a new set of winter tires, but would like to understand what might be contributing to the "road noise" such that I could hardly hear my engine running at speeds between 50-100mph. I understand that sound insulation with Cabrios does not compare to coupes, but the switch from summer to winter radials is like day and night and I hope it is the age of tires as the main culprit. Tires have plenty of thread left (75% left on all tires). I have owned previously several 911 coupes (997.1 C2 manual, 997.2 and 992.2 Turbo S models), but never experienced this level of winter tire noise (of course, never bought used tires before).
10-18-2021, 09:51 AM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Its probably the age of the tires and Pirelli brand from things I previously read. But, the reason I am really responding is I'd like to hear of why you went from a 992.2 S turbo back to a basic 997 C2 base model -you can't bait us like that and just casually mention it ! Thanks
10-18-2021, 10:25 AM
#3
^This. I have Sottozeros as well, and they are louder than my Michelin S4S summers when new, and as they age become progressively louder. Also, at seven years old they are beyond their recommended life irrespective of remaining tread.
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lucian95 (10-20-2021)
10-18-2021, 11:44 AM
#4
Hi Sporty,
Let me try and respond to your question why I went back to base 997, without triggering a broader debate. By the way, thank you for responding re my winter tires question (thanks to mpath as well). Here is the thing, I live in Europe and it used to be possible to enjoy fast driving on German highways a lot more frequently than what is possible today. There is nothing better than Turbo S for that, together with the car's ability to accelerate really well. I went from 997.2 to 991.2 Turbo S mainly due to Porsche's strong marketing genius, but to be honest, I couldn't appreciate the real difference between the two in terms of speed or handling. However, there was an issue with 991.2, at least for me I saw it as a flaw, and that was the awful droning at around 2000rpm in top gear. I asked Porsche dealer to close the inlet to sound symposer and it didn't help at all. I think it was simply something that Porsche didn't research well with this particular model and I wasn't willing to drive in Sport mode all the time. I had no such issue with 997.2 Turbo S, but that's probably because of differences in PDK gearing setup between the two models. To make the story short, I decided to sell it while the prices were good and take a bit of rest from 911s for a while. As my other daily, I'm driving Panny GTS (2016) which is a great travel car and eats highway miles with aplomb. As I'm not a track guy, I didn't see myself buying a GT3, although it is an awesome machine. As I'm nearing my early retirement with more and more free time at my disposal, I decided to go back to basics and get a 911 with non-turbo engine, manual and cabrio (never had a cab before) that I could enjoy year long for trips to the coast and mountains. No more fast driving (autobahn is getting more and more restricted as to what you can really do with fast cars), now I focus more on joy of driving through the mountain twisties, less focused on speed, but more on running the car through gears and enjoying the superb handling of the car. I don't know, maybe it has to do with my age and experience, but I really appreciate the joy of driving the base Carrera. Had recently tested 992 Carrera S and it felt the most synthetic 911 I ever experienced. Nice car of course, but it felt so different from the previous generations. People are different and Porsche drivers look for different things in different models, but one thing is common to all 911s, be it old or new, they are unique for what they represent and they offer so much joyful driving experience.
Let me try and respond to your question why I went back to base 997, without triggering a broader debate. By the way, thank you for responding re my winter tires question (thanks to mpath as well). Here is the thing, I live in Europe and it used to be possible to enjoy fast driving on German highways a lot more frequently than what is possible today. There is nothing better than Turbo S for that, together with the car's ability to accelerate really well. I went from 997.2 to 991.2 Turbo S mainly due to Porsche's strong marketing genius, but to be honest, I couldn't appreciate the real difference between the two in terms of speed or handling. However, there was an issue with 991.2, at least for me I saw it as a flaw, and that was the awful droning at around 2000rpm in top gear. I asked Porsche dealer to close the inlet to sound symposer and it didn't help at all. I think it was simply something that Porsche didn't research well with this particular model and I wasn't willing to drive in Sport mode all the time. I had no such issue with 997.2 Turbo S, but that's probably because of differences in PDK gearing setup between the two models. To make the story short, I decided to sell it while the prices were good and take a bit of rest from 911s for a while. As my other daily, I'm driving Panny GTS (2016) which is a great travel car and eats highway miles with aplomb. As I'm not a track guy, I didn't see myself buying a GT3, although it is an awesome machine. As I'm nearing my early retirement with more and more free time at my disposal, I decided to go back to basics and get a 911 with non-turbo engine, manual and cabrio (never had a cab before) that I could enjoy year long for trips to the coast and mountains. No more fast driving (autobahn is getting more and more restricted as to what you can really do with fast cars), now I focus more on joy of driving through the mountain twisties, less focused on speed, but more on running the car through gears and enjoying the superb handling of the car. I don't know, maybe it has to do with my age and experience, but I really appreciate the joy of driving the base Carrera. Had recently tested 992 Carrera S and it felt the most synthetic 911 I ever experienced. Nice car of course, but it felt so different from the previous generations. People are different and Porsche drivers look for different things in different models, but one thing is common to all 911s, be it old or new, they are unique for what they represent and they offer so much joyful driving experience.
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10-18-2021, 01:35 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
My experience:
I mounted new (13-month-old date codes) Michelin Alpin NO tires on my 2018 Macan GTS prior to a month-long (Jan 15- Feb 15) winter ski trip in British Columbia, Canada.
They performed incredibly on the Powder Highway- in every condition- from deluge rain to 12" of fresh powder; on smooth and rutted paved, gravel, off road dirt and even across a frozen lake. The tire noise level was initially far louder than with the summer Pirelli P Zeros, but totally expected as they have many, many more tread blocks with deep siping on every one of them.
Driving on dry highways at 70-85 mph created the worst cabin noise, but the volume began to decrease after about 200-300 miles. It became barely audible, especially with music playing, after 500 miles. While handling was not even close to the Pirellis on dry, smooth pavement; in rain or on marginal surfaces, they had far superior grip and inspired confidence in challenging conditions with a nervous wife riding shotgun.
Post 1700-mile road trip, I put the Macan back in storage and left the winter tires on for our next ski trip. Six months later, a family emergency during the peak of the pandemic necessitated a road trip from Portland OR to Minnesota. We drove another 1700 miles (in September, so mostly dry) across OR, WA, ID, MT, and ND to Minnesota. The route was I-94, all interstate, mostly at 80-100mph. The tires were still noisier than the Pirellis, but totally livable.
Fall and winter set in and the tires proved optimal for midwest temperature extremes (we experienced -10 to 92 deg F). The summer performance tires were sketch when driving over passes in the Alps on our Euro delivery trip. They became rock hard below 40 deg F with some scary hydroplaning on packed snow crossing the Fernpas. (Our trip was Sep 1 to Oct 31...with most of the driving in Italy until returning to Stuttgart on Reformation Day.)
We ended up taking a side trip to Colorado and back before driving back to Oregon. All told, we put 9000 miles on the Alpins in 4 months. I could not be more impressed with their versatility. While acknowledging the Macan is a CUV, it has every performance option (Sport Chrono, Air Suspension, e-LSD, Torque Vectoring and the GTS has -10mm ride height than the turbo version). I enjoy attacking a set of curves in it, and the Alpins were up to the job; I estimate they provide about 70% of the Pirelli P Zero grip performance on dry pavement. In any other condition, the Alpins are solid, safe and far superior.
Take away is that you need new snow tires for your Carrera.
Older is not better. (7 year old tires are two years beyond every recommendations I have read.)
Try the Alpins, they carry Porsche N ratings and have served me well for almost 11,000 miles.
Gute fahrt!
I mounted new (13-month-old date codes) Michelin Alpin NO tires on my 2018 Macan GTS prior to a month-long (Jan 15- Feb 15) winter ski trip in British Columbia, Canada.
They performed incredibly on the Powder Highway- in every condition- from deluge rain to 12" of fresh powder; on smooth and rutted paved, gravel, off road dirt and even across a frozen lake. The tire noise level was initially far louder than with the summer Pirelli P Zeros, but totally expected as they have many, many more tread blocks with deep siping on every one of them.
Driving on dry highways at 70-85 mph created the worst cabin noise, but the volume began to decrease after about 200-300 miles. It became barely audible, especially with music playing, after 500 miles. While handling was not even close to the Pirellis on dry, smooth pavement; in rain or on marginal surfaces, they had far superior grip and inspired confidence in challenging conditions with a nervous wife riding shotgun.
Post 1700-mile road trip, I put the Macan back in storage and left the winter tires on for our next ski trip. Six months later, a family emergency during the peak of the pandemic necessitated a road trip from Portland OR to Minnesota. We drove another 1700 miles (in September, so mostly dry) across OR, WA, ID, MT, and ND to Minnesota. The route was I-94, all interstate, mostly at 80-100mph. The tires were still noisier than the Pirellis, but totally livable.
Fall and winter set in and the tires proved optimal for midwest temperature extremes (we experienced -10 to 92 deg F). The summer performance tires were sketch when driving over passes in the Alps on our Euro delivery trip. They became rock hard below 40 deg F with some scary hydroplaning on packed snow crossing the Fernpas. (Our trip was Sep 1 to Oct 31...with most of the driving in Italy until returning to Stuttgart on Reformation Day.)
We ended up taking a side trip to Colorado and back before driving back to Oregon. All told, we put 9000 miles on the Alpins in 4 months. I could not be more impressed with their versatility. While acknowledging the Macan is a CUV, it has every performance option (Sport Chrono, Air Suspension, e-LSD, Torque Vectoring and the GTS has -10mm ride height than the turbo version). I enjoy attacking a set of curves in it, and the Alpins were up to the job; I estimate they provide about 70% of the Pirelli P Zero grip performance on dry pavement. In any other condition, the Alpins are solid, safe and far superior.
Take away is that you need new snow tires for your Carrera.
Older is not better. (7 year old tires are two years beyond every recommendations I have read.)
Try the Alpins, they carry Porsche N ratings and have served me well for almost 11,000 miles.
Gute fahrt!
Last edited by Liste-Renn; 10-18-2021 at 01:42 PM.
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lucian95 (10-20-2021)
10-18-2021, 01:40 PM
#7
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10-19-2021, 02:18 PM
#8
Nordschleife Master
in my experience, pirellis are VERY noisy as they age and rubber hardens. imho, 6 year old pirellis sound even worse then say ....10 year old michelins.
also, winter tires at 7 years old, regardless of the treadDepth imo dont have much practical winter usage left. the oils have left the tires and the tires are pretty much like hockey pucks. for summer weather, if you are driving gt cruiser style on nice weather days then an older good quality slightly (ie michelin) tire isn't too much of an issue, but for winters imho is a completely diff story.
also, winter tires at 7 years old, regardless of the treadDepth imo dont have much practical winter usage left. the oils have left the tires and the tires are pretty much like hockey pucks. for summer weather, if you are driving gt cruiser style on nice weather days then an older good quality slightly (ie michelin) tire isn't too much of an issue, but for winters imho is a completely diff story.
Hi everyone,
I'd like to get some thoughts on the following observation and whether you've experienced the same or you could offer some explanation. I drive 997.2 base Carrera 4 Cabrio 6-sp manual. I just switched from my summer (Vredestein) to winter tires. To be specific, I bought a well preserved original set of original Porsche 911 wheels with winter Pirellis Sottozeros (they have plenty of profile, but they are 7 yrs old) with the correct offset spec (8Jx19 ET57 front, 11Jx19 ET51 rear) to be used as my dedicated winter set. After driving a bit, I immediately noticed the cabin noise to be much much higher, to the point that I felt like reaching my hearing tolerance (booming/drone like sound). When I talked to the fellow I bought wheels and tires from (that's his business), he suggested that I drive a bit more as tires might have to "adjust" to the new car. We both speculated that the age of tires could have something to do with it as well, as the wheels are properly balanced and I'm getting no unusual feedback through my steering wheel that would suggest otherwise. I have no problems buying a new set of winter tires, but would like to understand what might be contributing to the "road noise" such that I could hardly hear my engine running at speeds between 50-100mph. I understand that sound insulation with Cabrios does not compare to coupes, but the switch from summer to winter radials is like day and night and I hope it is the age of tires as the main culprit. Tires have plenty of thread left (75% left on all tires). I have owned previously several 911 coupes (997.1 C2 manual, 997.2 and 992.2 Turbo S models), but never experienced this level of winter tire noise (of course, never bought used tires before).
I'd like to get some thoughts on the following observation and whether you've experienced the same or you could offer some explanation. I drive 997.2 base Carrera 4 Cabrio 6-sp manual. I just switched from my summer (Vredestein) to winter tires. To be specific, I bought a well preserved original set of original Porsche 911 wheels with winter Pirellis Sottozeros (they have plenty of profile, but they are 7 yrs old) with the correct offset spec (8Jx19 ET57 front, 11Jx19 ET51 rear) to be used as my dedicated winter set. After driving a bit, I immediately noticed the cabin noise to be much much higher, to the point that I felt like reaching my hearing tolerance (booming/drone like sound). When I talked to the fellow I bought wheels and tires from (that's his business), he suggested that I drive a bit more as tires might have to "adjust" to the new car. We both speculated that the age of tires could have something to do with it as well, as the wheels are properly balanced and I'm getting no unusual feedback through my steering wheel that would suggest otherwise. I have no problems buying a new set of winter tires, but would like to understand what might be contributing to the "road noise" such that I could hardly hear my engine running at speeds between 50-100mph. I understand that sound insulation with Cabrios does not compare to coupes, but the switch from summer to winter radials is like day and night and I hope it is the age of tires as the main culprit. Tires have plenty of thread left (75% left on all tires). I have owned previously several 911 coupes (997.1 C2 manual, 997.2 and 992.2 Turbo S models), but never experienced this level of winter tire noise (of course, never bought used tires before).
The following users liked this post:
lucian95 (10-20-2021)