Zygrene

Hey all - I know this topic has been covered many times, but I'm only able to find small snippets on various threads. Wanted to see if there's any new information or personal anecdotes that could help my decision here.

I'm looking at selling my 2006 Cayman S to pick up a 2005 base Carrera as a dual purpose daily/track car. I tracked my Cayman (with LN 2 qt baffled deep sump) where it suffered from AOS failure, and I've been hesitant to drop almost $2k on the motorsport AOS since I've read that oil starvation and bore scoring are pretty likely even with the upgrades.

I've heard the 997.1 (especially the base 3.6L) has fewer engine reliability issues when tracked, compared with the 987.1 S. I understand this is largely due to the pseudo dry sump design versus wet sump in the Cayman. The Carrera I'm looking at has 62k miles with history of IMS, RMS, and clutch replacement.

Here are my questions:
1) Is the 997.1 3.6 actually more reliable than the 987.1 3.4? If so, why?
2) Any other major engine reliability issues I should be aware of?
3) Considering I will be tracking the car on 200TW tires, is there an argument to go for a C2S over the C2? My main concern is reliability, not lap times.

Cheers in advance. This forum has been super helpful during my first 9 months of Porsche ownership.

bcrl

I wanna to know the answer as well. Anyone?

Steph1

The few techs I have discussed this with have told me the same thing, and one (the one I chose to work on my car) actually works on track Porsches. He said ims is same with 3.6 and 3.8 and extremely rare, but 3.6 is apparently much less prone to bore scoring.

So I'm following this too👍

Steph1

Double post🙄

Hella-Buggin'

The Carerra & Cayman have the same engine. It's just swapped the other way for mid engine. Any oild starvation issues you cayman has the Carerra will have.
The .1 (m96 or m97) engines are problematic on the track. Your best bet is to spend the xtra money for a .2 Gen that has a much better engine.

Hella-Buggin'

I tracked my 06 S for years and blew through AOS's as well as smoke at almost every startup at the track. I got tired of modding it and worrying about it so I bought a GT3.

Quadcammer

yup to both of hella buggin's posts.

save a bit more and get yourself a 2009+ carrera if you want a 911 for track, or better yet, a mezger powered vehicle

Steph1

Don't wanna argue cause I don't have the knowledge to debate it, but my Indy which preps Porsches for the track for numerous racers, said that he prefers the 3.6 in 997.1 because they never experienced problems with them, hence why he and the owner of their garage own and race 997.1 base 3.6 with mods as opposed to 3.8 that tend to overheat much more easily, causing bore scoring.

bcrl

The other option is get the Flat Six Innovation stage II Track Performer engine on a 997.1?

Hella-Buggin'

I can't speak to the nuance that your mechanic may see, but the 3.6 and 3.8 are essentially the same engine with the same inadequate oil delivery system. Under high G loads, the rpm driven oil pump suck the oil oit of the sump faster than the scavenger pumps in the heads can return it. In a 997.1 it's worse on right hand sweepers because the scavenger pump is located on the driver's side at the front of the head but the oil pools at the rear of the head. It's less a cooling issue than it is a oil delivery problem. The .2 Cars have many more oil pumps and they maintain pressure on demand, vs RPM controlled. The Mezger, has a proper dry sump.

The 3.6 may, be minutely better.... but not good enough. I have a friend who has blown two on the track. Several other friends who have lost them there as well. I can't think of ever seeing a .2 blow on the track. One day it was 110 degrees and a .1 Cayman was driving the ***** off his car. I called it a day after one session, knowing nothing good would come of it. Just after lunch.... he grenaded the engine down the front straight, oil the whole way down.

bcrl

I wonder how does Flat Six Innovation track performer engine fix the oil delivery fundamental problem? Deep sump?

Hope Jake can share his inputs?

Hella-Buggin'

I'm sure Jake isn't going to divulge the specifics of his mastery, but I suspect he does a lot of work to clearances and things to keep the oil temps down.
Once the engine oil reads 250, you're closer to 300 at the bearings. The oil is shearing and it thinned out. Oil Weights are measured at I think 210?

I'm really not trying to disprove your mechanic. All I'm trying to say is that the m96 & m97 engines are problematic on the track compared to 9A1 and Mezger.
Eventually, unless purpose built like Flat 6 or a handful of other's.... it will let go.

Zygrene

Interesting info guys, thanks. I ended up purchasing the 997.1 C2. I don't plan to track the car in 100+ degree weather. I will, however, run 200TW tires and coilovers. My plan was to install a deep sump and call it a day. Sounds like I'm still taking a huge risk...

My understanding was that the "pseudo dry sump" of the 997.1 C2/C2S is, at a minimum, superior to the conventional wet sump of the 987.1. Is this not the case?

Also, I can't find a Motorsport AOS specific for the 997.1 3.6L. I know there's a 996 version for around $900 and a 987.1 version that's double the cost for just a minor clearance modification. Which Motorsport AOS is compatible with 997.1?

Hella-Buggin'

There is no Pseudo dry sump in the .1 gen cars. That's the .2 cars.
You have the same wet sump as in your old car.

Zygrene

Ah, for some reason I thought that the 997.1 3.6 and 3.8 M97 engines used an "integrated dry sump" design with no external oil tank, whereas the 3.4 M97 in the Cayman S used an inferior design.

Damn.