Iron cylinder liners in new 992 Turbo
12-08-2019, 05:48 PM
#31
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This is a good point and worthy of starting another thread. Go ahead and fire one up! IMO, these cars are at the point where the power is just not usable and folks are starting to get that.... other things are moving to the front... especially for these prices. I never thought ever that I would say my car is fast enough... but I think I am there.... at least not at the expense of reliability.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
Peace
Bruce in Philly
That said, new Porsche 911s continue to get more reliable and now have reached hypercar performance numbers. I turn my DB in in May and will replace it with a 992 Turbo as soon as I can get my hands on one.
Hypercar numbers, daily driveability and almost assured reliability at $225 ish is truly amazing to me. Porsche deserves props. Kinda silly to start pontificating about this issue unless it becomes an issue.
12-09-2019, 12:30 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
Well sure, that includes anyone in business. They fleece the consumer one way or another.
Porsche, however, generally ranks pretty high up on JD Powerr and other reliability rankings. The newer cars are dam good products and very reliable considering the performance they offer.
Funny to me that people focus so much on this issue and not what I said about the new Turbo being a 2.1 ish 0-60 car. Forget the manufacturer estimated 2.5. I know people that have driven it that have 991.2 Turbo Ss, GT3 RSs and etc., and word is this thing is a whole other level in quickness. Amazing engineeringvto get that power down IMO.
Porsche, however, generally ranks pretty high up on JD Powerr and other reliability rankings. The newer cars are dam good products and very reliable considering the performance they offer.
Funny to me that people focus so much on this issue and not what I said about the new Turbo being a 2.1 ish 0-60 car. Forget the manufacturer estimated 2.5. I know people that have driven it that have 991.2 Turbo Ss, GT3 RSs and etc., and word is this thing is a whole other level in quickness. Amazing engineeringvto get that power down IMO.
Sub 3 seconds is incredible engineering, but I think sub-4 or sub-03 second 0-60 times become just a talking point for most of us. I can't react fast enough to handle that kind of acceleration on public roads, and you can buy a stock Subaru that will do 0-60 in around 4 seconds. Or a (to me) boring as dirt Tesla that can do 3-second 0-60 runs. I feel that handling and versatility (comfort when you want it, performance when you need it) is the next "0-60 time", unless you are a serious track driver. Which, alas, most of us can't be.
12-09-2019, 01:42 AM
#33
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Sub 3 seconds is incredible engineering, but I think sub-4 or sub-03 second 0-60 times become just a talking point for most of us. I can't react fast enough to handle that kind of acceleration on public roads, and you can buy a stock Subaru that will do 0-60 in around 4 seconds. Or a (to me) boring as dirt Tesla that can do 3-second 0-60 runs. I feel that handling and versatility (comfort when you want it, performance when you need it) is the next "0-60 time", unless you are a serious track driver. Which, alas, most of us can't be.
Of for sure, it is way more than anyone needs. That is not the point. The point is they did it and forget 0-60. Can you imagine the pull from 50 to about 150. I have two close friends with Veyrons, 1 of which I get to drive occasionally. That car is a marvel of engineering, but the it should be given the $$$s.
The 992 Turbo S is now in Veyron and Chiron league at a fraction of the price. Your not a car guy if that doesn't get you excited.
12-09-2019, 10:45 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
No just sub 3, we are talking 2.1 or 2.0 The report I got was this thing was around 2.0 to 2.1. The 992 Turbo S also has the handling, versatility and comfort.
Of for sure, it is way more than anyone needs. That is not the point. The point is they did it and forget 0-60. Can you imagine the pull from 50 to about 150. I have two close friends with Veyrons, 1 of which I get to drive occasionally. That car is a marvel of engineering, but the it should be given the $$$s.
The 992 Turbo S is now in Veyron and Chiron league at a fraction of the price. Your not a car guy if that doesn't get you excited.
Of for sure, it is way more than anyone needs. That is not the point. The point is they did it and forget 0-60. Can you imagine the pull from 50 to about 150. I have two close friends with Veyrons, 1 of which I get to drive occasionally. That car is a marvel of engineering, but the it should be given the $$$s.
The 992 Turbo S is now in Veyron and Chiron league at a fraction of the price. Your not a car guy if that doesn't get you excited.
12-09-2019, 10:59 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
According to C&D, the 9A2 is iron coated while the article above indicates that the 992 Turbo uses iron liners.
The new engines, known internally as 9A2, are complete redesigns of the existing 9A1 powerplants, although they retain the traditional flat-six layout and general dimensions of their predecessors. The engine block still consists of two parts, each with a crankcase half and a block of three cylinders. However, these cylinder bores are now coated with iron that is plasma-sprayed onto the aluminum surface. The raw aluminum cylinders are machined with slightly undercut grooves, so that the 150-micron-thick (0.006 inch) iron coating interlocks mechanically with the aluminum. According to Thomas Brandl, one of the engineers working on the new engine, this RSW (Rotating Single Wire) process is more durable than either Nikasil or the silicon-reinforced Locasil process used previously.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...urbo-flat-six/
The new engines, known internally as 9A2, are complete redesigns of the existing 9A1 powerplants, although they retain the traditional flat-six layout and general dimensions of their predecessors. The engine block still consists of two parts, each with a crankcase half and a block of three cylinders. However, these cylinder bores are now coated with iron that is plasma-sprayed onto the aluminum surface. The raw aluminum cylinders are machined with slightly undercut grooves, so that the 150-micron-thick (0.006 inch) iron coating interlocks mechanically with the aluminum. According to Thomas Brandl, one of the engineers working on the new engine, this RSW (Rotating Single Wire) process is more durable than either Nikasil or the silicon-reinforced Locasil process used previously.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...urbo-flat-six/
It doesn't make any sense for Porsche to go to iron liners, but makes perfect sense that they would use the same SUMEbore process from the 918 Spyder which then made it to production of the 718. SUMEbore has been used by Ford in the Mustang Shelby GT350 and Nissan GT-R successfully for many years, so it's a proven process.
In fact, Jake is building both an aircooled and watercooled M96 engine based on this technology now using their F2071 coating:
There is a similar discussion going on in the 996 forum on this topic:
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-liners-4.html
At our scale, SUMEbore is over four times as much money than Nikasil, so it's not an option, but from an OE standpoint, it has benefits over the Nikasil process and doesn't provide a barrier to thermal transfer, unlike iron sleeves.
If Porsche did use iron liners, it would be a dry liner configuration like a Subaru, which would require changes to intra-cylinder distances among other changes to support such a radical departure from how the 9A1 engine was constructed.