The Ox

Same for me in NY. Once I retire, about 5 years, I'm out. I'd rather spend my money the way I want to than let the wasteful government do it for me.

alexb76

Generally, I have NO problem with technology changes (work in high-tech) and for electric cars to be an option available to consumers. HOWEVER, what I am absolutely against and most people living in a free society must be against, is the GOVERNMENT dictating WHAT shall I drive due to regulations, mandates, ridiculous rebates, etc...

Unfortunately, that's not the case, Europe is already starting to ban combustion engine, here in Canada we are not far behind, and US may revert back to crazy 50 MPG laws in 3years and California may do that even sooner. These efforts are neo-Marxist and post-modernists policies that have dominated most of the left liberal countries and is very destructive and against freedom of mobility.

LET THE MARKET DECIDE... then it's all good.

Austin997.2

Your honor, this is my last piece of evidence, I rest my case.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/25/ca...nder-pronouns/

Iceter

Or, you could look at that income migration map that was posted earlier and realize that your post is nothing more than misplaced anger.

Or, you could Google federal tax revenues by state and see your theory about blue states carrying the weight for us hillbilly meth-heads disproven.

Either way, I don't care as long as you, your anger and your vote stay right where they are.

But I digress. This thread is about electric cars and I took it off on a tangent, for which I apologize to the group. I can't think of electric cars without thinking of taxpayer subsidies and government mandates and I got carried away. Mea culpa.

SoCal C2S

I formally request data to back these claims....as they say, in God we trust, everyone bring data. Since the stats just rolled off your fingers, just post your sources they must be at your finger tips.

Tcc1999

But it's the wine bottle that makes living here bearable

Last I heard the Assembly refused to take up the Senate Single Payer Bill with the Speaker stating that (paraphrased), it was not a bad idea but the Senate Bill did not propose a realistic way to pay for it. In short, the Senate dumped an idea on the Assembly and hoped they would do the heavy lifting/make difficult political decisions in marking up the Bill. As I recall, the Speaker took a fair amount of heat for this. Have things changed in the Assembly?

In the end, if you proceed on the assumption that our taxes will rise again (either directly or through "fees") the question is whether or not raising them for a Single Payer system is worth it. That is, down the road when The Beast needs to be fed again for something critical, there will be less leeway to tax b/c Single Payer is sucking up a portion of tax revenue that could otherwise be used. Shortly after Prop 30 initially passed (increased state tax on high incomes), a study was released that found CA was nearing the tipping point where tax rates would reach a certain level such that the wealthy would actually migrate in significant numbers such that the state's revenue stream would be severely impacted. And while it is a broad, perhaps unrealistic assumption that the tax burden in CA falls on the wealthy, what is not in dispute is that pre Prop 30 CA had tens of billion dollar defecit - and it disappeared after taxes were raised. Kinda' makes you want to buy an island and set up your own country.

mchrono

As long as CA tax rate < Fed rate, and the Fed deduction for state/local remains, I don't see this happening for the wealthy.

It's business and the middle class that is migrating out now because of the taxes and burdensome regulations and cost of doing business.

And it's the destitute and very low income people (legal or otherwise) who are attracted to the state for the free healthcare, education, and welfare (ie CA represents 12% of the US population, but has 34% of its welfare recipients): http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/...htmlstory.html

So, what will CA look like down the road?

OK, back to talking about the end of the internal combustion engine.

Bruce In Philly

For all you free marketers who think government is socialism and doom..... I am always shocked at how little reasoning there is and how these far lefties or righties ignore simple history and what works and does not work. In short, a slight guiding hand of government using my money is not a bad thing..... it is not SOCIALISM ahahahahhaha!!!!!! Doooom.

Government can and has played a wonderful role in the promotion of emerging industries..... commercial aviation is one of them as airplanes were so darn expensive and the technology so limited that regulation of price and other items allowed the companies to be profitable way before the technology was ready thus speeding (or enabling?) the development of viable and safer systems.

By granting a monopoly to the implementation of the telecom industry and controlling/regulating rates, (Phones and AT&T), the feds drove the standardization of components and protocols as well as the invention and deployment of an amazing system. AT&T had to invent practical amplification, speakers, and microphones!!!! Prior to creating the monopoly, there were many telephone companies and their systems could not talk to each other... and were not scaleable.... a mess. In other words, a huge risk to the free market, mitigated by government using my money (yes we all overpaid for that telephone to fund its development and deployment)

Regarding government getting involved in transitioning from the combustion engine:

I spent the last 50 years hearing from politicians, defense analysts, health experts, et al talk of the environmental damage, the immense flow of wealth out of the USA, the detriments to human health, and the empowerment of rogue governments, and faux, propped-up-by-petro dollars awful political systems.... that are all about oil. If this is all true, then it appears that government involvement to encourage the development of alternative systems is not a bad thing..... it becomes simple defense.

Further, if you turn your freedom-smelling nose up at the Europeans, Indians, and others, for their mandated move to electric cars, just remember that they will be developing some really cool technologies .... that if we in USA don't encourage too, can leave the USA out of an emerging industrial evolution. As much as we love to think our free market will solve for all things, it is actually massivly selfish and near-term thinking. A dollar today is worth way more than 100 in ten years. That is why government is heavily funds pure research as it is too long-yeared and unsure for the free market to fund.

The only real issue I see to the move to electric is the further dropping of oil prices that will make electric just dumb. Did you think the big oil producers of the world were just going to let that happen? Oil price strategy is really driven by cost...... I forget the real numbers but Saudi cost is around 10$ a barrel to pump into the markets... they can lower by quite a huge margin and drive out competing technologies.

Anywho.... we are heading into long term and lower gas prices than humans have ever seen.... they will go lower still as the big producers try and choke the emerging USA fracking production and emergence of price competitive electric cars. Encouraging the free market to continue investing in alternatives requires a slight hand of government encouragement.

As the economist's article suggests, electric cars will be cheaper to own and maintain simply because they have way fewer parts. Not a bad thing for me.

One last point..... I used to live in Cleveland..... do you remember the Cuyahoga river catching fire? It actually happened a bunch of times. That was the free market baby!!!Yeeehaa !!!! Go capitalism!

I don't care one whiff what powers my fun... as long as it is fun and there is a healthy free market that will figure all that out for me.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Austin997.2

Capitalism and Freedom of Speech made this country. Cherry picking some burning river is laughable. Take a look at Venezuela and North Korea if you want to look at what an all encompassing government looks like. Limited government is the way to go. Putting a gun to my head through IRS jackbooted thugs so I can pay for other people's lives is not freedom.

"None of us are greedy, it's always the other fellow that's greedy." ~Milton Friedman

Great little video by Milton Friedman on Capitalism for all you Fidel Castro sympathizers:

3Series

Tesla released the Model S in 2012 (200+ mi range, not crazy expensive but expensive)

Aramco is going public

The Saudi's released a plan to diversify the economy away from oil

In 2017, almost every major car manufacturer produces an EV

The writing isn't on the wall. It's been published
In terms of cell phones, current EV's are like a late 80's cell phone.

In 30 years the 911 will be electric and Formula E will become F1.

Bruce In Philly

Interesting and I think you proved my point in my tome.... from what I just wrote: "Slight hand of government" that you then imply I am writing about North Korea. Hmmmm..... the world of good solutions is not one of black or white.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Austin997.2

In all fairness, your example of capitalism was a burning river and not the IPhone. Obviously we need a small government for some things but government is a monster with a never ending appetite that only knows how to grow.

ADias

Milton Friedman, how right he is! We are living strange times in America when the attraction of utopias is a great magnet for many who can only see zero-sum economies - even so-called 'educated' people. Of course the education is highly questionable or intentionally contrived.

SoCal C2S

The senate has taken a different route...send it to the assembly who now will put it on the ballot. So people will read free health care and the vote will pass giving the state the task to get the money by whatever means...I.e. taxes and fees.

So the people voted for it, so do it. Works very well in CA, however it doesn't play when you vote for a President.

But your seeing and emphasizing my point. People with money will move out of CA leaving only those who don't pay taxes and kaboom! North Korea now is the same as CA in terms of finances.

MagnusB

Milton Friedman is in the dustbin nowadays, if you follow economics you would know that.