ypshan

I just got the harness mount bar and the 6-Point Schroth belts put in. I drove home wearing the harnesses and found that the two sub-belts rather uncomfortable.

They seem to pressure the inside of my thigh and restrict the leg movement when I wanted to depress the clutch.

I have the regular power seats so I am sitting on the sub-belts.

Do you feel the same way? Is there anything I can do to make them more comfortable?

Thanks.

racer63

That's a strange one. I've only used 5 point belts in my race cars. I can see why the six point might be uncomfortable. Any chance they'd allow you to return it for the Shroth 5 point?

ColorChange

Ypshan:

Part of the answer depends upon how you mounted the belts. Did you go to the front seat mounting bolts or did you use a sub bar that attaches below the bottom of front seat.

If you went ot the seat bolts, the sub harness tends to be spread too wide and cuts into your legs. If you use the bar, you can adjust the angle and have much more comfort.

I like hte six point as I prefer to increase my odds of remaining a man in the event I ever need it.

Tim

GreggT

Ditto on Colorchange..........I went to 6 point last yr after many yrs of reg 5.

I still use 5 for autocross (and low risk events).....prefer for comfort, but understand the more holding you down, the better.

Hey Tim.........you actually strap in the 6 point for a ride home?......taking the back roads are we?

racer63

I've contemplated that issue several times. But, even in two fairly heavy impacts, I have had no adverse effects - even have a two year old born subsequent to the two hard hits. One incident involved a rookie, who passed the field under yellow, then spun on the restart (after the flaggers failed to bring him in, another story...) Unfortunately, his spin took place immediately in front of me, but just over a small hill. As I could not see him, and the flagger could not get the flag raised in time, there was no time to react other than a slight lift... and I hit him head on at 70 mph or so. No injury to the groin... or anything other than the car itself, for that matter. (The car was toast...)

Furthermore, I've never once heard of a person having a demasculating experience with a five point. My guess is it's just marketing. Next, we'll probably have seven point belts. Maybe some little strap between the two shoulder belts as on my kid's child seat.

ColorChange

Racer 63, you're probably right, but these are my one and only set of cahonies and over the years I've become quite attached to them.

I don''t use the sub for normal street driving, just the top 4-points (yes I make sure the bottom is low and tight). If I ever do rev it up on the street, on goes the sub.

Tim

racer63

The six points should probably work just fine too. More importantly, once adjusted, they might be more comfortable (less pressure on the cajones) once you get the belts cinched?

Speaking of using the belts on the street, I've never used race belts on the street without also using the antisub. Will they work properly in a garden variety street accident, without the sub attached? I don't know the answer, but I've always figured that they would not, and so I do attach it even on the street. (Sorry, don't want to sound like someone's mom, or like I work for Ralph Nader or something...)

Kerry

Shan,
I have the Schroth 6pt setup just like yours (sitting on the belts). I've been told by Northstar that's the safest way to mount them. As for comfort, your might have the sub-belts a bit too tight.

FixedWing

We have just been discussing this on the Ringers list.

Here is a quote from one of the posts:

And now to quote myself:

The quoted article must be read by anyone interested in this topic!

Stephen

racer63

Very interesting. Thanks for posting Stephen. I think I understand the placement of the sub and how it is intended to work. But, why is the 6 pt better?

Is it better only because it fits around the nut sack, rather than over the middle of it? (as implied at the start of this thread) Or does it do a better job of restraining you in an incident?

A couple more questions for you.

Is there any merit to the new "HANS" style harnesses? The one's with the sticky stuff (maybe rubber?) on the underside of the shoulder harness. I think there might be merit here as the HANS device does seem to slip and slide a little under a regular harness. (I wear a HANS.)

Also, where do you get that expensive FIA padding. I will certainly install it, now that I know it exists. But, where on earth do you find it?

Yours in speed,

GreggT

Guess my IQ needs a visual to understand this better.

Personally, I always thought the submarine belts did play some role in keeping you in the seat if inverted.....and, I definately thought one of their roles was keeping the whole system activily in the correct position (ie countering the up & back pull of the shoulder belts), keeping the lap belts in the lap, etc).

I've never understood this "sit on your sub belt' explanation......pretty sure that for my light frame this would mean the 'parachute' system would pretty much be lifting me up out of my seat (as I generally do crank everything in damn tight).

Sure I'm missing this totally here, so help me out.

Ruf-Racer

Good write up by the doctor. BTW, sub belt saves more than one's sack; saves crushed ankles and feet! I believe the HANS is another device to run with. Sorry I can't quote specific numers at the moment but the G load on the head moving forward for a short time say, 50 ms is huge when the vehicle stops quickly! Same comment with a straight into the wall crash or an off the road into a bank incident . Heart or other organs get ripped by G's. Less serious cases sometimes are not instantly fatal but undetected internal damage causes the racer to " bleed out" in a few minutes. I will try and retrieve some numbers written by a friend who earns his living doing crash analysis. I have seen a friend die because forward G stress did in fact rip vital organs. I have seen another friend bleed out twenty minutes after a crash. His liver had been damaged because of loose/improper belts. He felt OK, declined medical evaluation and died soon after. Every real racer on this board knows how important it is to cinch the harness to a point that seems way to tight! End of rant.

Have fun. Be safe

R
PS
good padding saved a really close friend when he landed *** backwards and upside down after leaving the road at 195 mph!. His hat hit the well padded roll cage after the seats broke loose.

racer63

I talked to the guys at Impact Racing regarding their own six and seven point belts and they claimed that there was no real difference safety wise, but that some prefer the "comfort" of the six and yes, seven, point systems (three in the crotch). They also indicated that the sub, if installed properly, does not impact the cajones (whether 5, 6 or 7 way) in a crash. The only time they have seen this occur is when used in conjunction with the Hutchens Device, an alternative to the HANS, which apparently routes some of its belts through the crotch area and can give you quite a front wedgie in an incident.

P.S. Also, while informative and interesting, note that the guy that wrote the article that was posted was just another racer, like the rest of us posting on this thread. He was not an expert in the area of race car safety.

Yours in speed.

racer63

Oh yeah. While I was at it, I also called Downing-Hubbard and they said that they had not yet tested any of the "HANS friendly" systems and that they had no evidence one way or the other on these systems.

FixedWing

Yes and no .... The author is quoting from a racer who is reporting on what Dr. John Melvin said at a conference. Dr. Melvin is a bio-mechanics expert who headed GM's racing injury research team from 92 to 98 and is now a consultant to all the major racing sanctioning bodies. He was brought into the NASCAR probe of the Earnhardt crash as a mutually respected expert during litigation.

The quoted paragraph is really cryptic and not easily understood. It took me days of reading and re-reading it to really figure out what was going on.

Ok … think of our standard 3-point harness. In a frontal crash, the torso moves forward. This pushes the shoulder belt forward which in turn tightens the lap belt. That’s what keeps us in the seat. It is this mechanical tighening that makes a 3-point belt work so well. The problem is that the upper torso can move a long way and strike many things.

Next look at your classic 4-point harness. It buckles in the centre. When we crash, the shoulder belts pull up on the centre. This pulls up on the lap belt. The lap belt moves up over the organs and we die of internal injuries.

That’s the point of the 5-point and 6-point belts. The sub belt is a counteracting force to the upwards pull of the shoulder harnesses. This stops it from pulling the lap belt up. Now the lap belts can do their job and keep us in the seat. That’s how the sub belts stop us from submarining – not because they act directly on our crotch to stop us from sliding under the belts.

The problem the doctor is talking about is where the sub belts are attached forward of the lap belt buckle. Then as our body moves forward it loosens these belts. There is nothing to stop the lap belt moving upwards. Again, disaster.

If the sub belts are mounted well back – so that they run along the seat before coming up and you effectively wear them like a parachute harness – then not only do they not loosen but in fact the forward movement of our bodies will tend to force the belts forward and they will then actually pull down on the lap belt (much the same way that in a 3-point belt the force of the body moving forward is used to tighten the lap belt).

My guess is the reason he singles out the 5-point harness is because the sub belt is not usually mounted back – probably for the reason everyone is alluding to. 6-point sub belts can be mounted back with the crotch belts coming around the *******.

Stephen