ColorChange

Fixed wing: Thank you.

I will now be mounting my 6-point well back. Now, I can mount it to the lap belt mounts, or, to increase comfort, can I mount to to the lap or rear seat bolts underneath the seat. Still far back but longer belt length (more streach) and will have to compress the seat before serious tension.

Any thoughts?

Racer63

Tell me about your hans. How fast before you need it (hitting a brick wall head on)? How undomfortable? What is the cost?

racer63

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for helping to clarify Stephen.

racer63

I honestly couldn't say how fast you need to be going. That's probably a question better answered by Downing Hubbard (the manufacturer/designer). But, I have seen (unfortunately) a low speed fatal impact with the wall at Phx Intl. The M3 driver couldn't have been going more than 100 mph at the point of impact. It was after seeing that that I decided to get the HANS. (This was about 1-2 months before DE died.)

The unit is not uncomfortable. It takes a little getting used to because it is a little awkward to get it on. But, once you are in the car driving, you don't notice it at all.

When I bought mine is was about $1,200. I think the cost may have come down a little.

ColorChange

Racer63

What happened when they bought it? I'm not being a gross voyer, I am trying to learn from others mistakes.

racer63

Colorchange -

I'm not sure what you are asking. What happened when who bought what?

-Donn

Greg Fishman

In my book a 100mph head on collision is not a "low speed" accident.
I guess if you ran in CART or IRL it would be...

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Racer63

Bought it ... as in the farm. You know ... bye bye.

racer63

Oh. Sorry. I try to block that one out.

Apparently, he came down too low on the banking and actully onto the flat area just below the banking, got sideways, turned 180, and slammed into the wall drivers's side first. His helmet hit the wall. I'm guess he was doing 100, possible less due to the sliding, when he hit.

Garey Cooper

I am trying to understand the recommendations for the sub-belt locactions. If it is to be mounted "well back"......does this mean that I should literally sit on the sub-belt and pass it back along beneath me? I have the Brey-Krause harness bar in my car now. Could/would I then mount the sub-belt to the same bar I use for the shoulder harness?

FixedWing

So I wasn't going to comment on the HANS side of this thread because I think I have a lot less to offer, but ...

I think a lot depends on the car you are in. The problem with the modern formula car is that it is too rigid. The shock transfers to the driver too quickly. Hence the need for the HANS.

The same might be true for certain other sedans, like NASCAR, where the entire car, front to back, has an extremely rigid frame. I think this is true for NASCAR where the car is really hung on a complete frame so that it isn’t actually a production sedan at all.

But in our sedans, where the crumple zones remain relatively intact, I'm not sure it is so necessary.

From what you describe, this particular accident was side-on. So no crumple zone. Was the cause neck injuries? Or was head-on with his helmet into the wall just too much no matter what? There are simply some crashes that aren't survivable. Hitting your head against a wall at 100 MPH is probably one of those. The body does need a certain (quite small actually) stopping distance to dissipate energy.

Oh, the other direction of impact that everyone forgets about is a hit on the bottom of the car. That's how many fatalities in airplanes take place. The spinal column can take very little load. I wonder if improvements can be made here? For example, progressively collapsible seat mounts.

Stephen

FixedWing

Yes. You would literally wear it the way you would a parachute harness or rock climbing harness. The sub belts would pass through your legs and then back.

As you are driving the belts would be under your bum. They would be tight. So you will feel them just as you would feel a parachute harness. The author of the article mentions how strange this felt to him at first. In a plane, you quickly get use to wearing a tight fitting parachute harness but then you aren’t moving around in the seat the same way you are in a car. It could be weird.

Quote:

I have the Brey-Krause harness bar in my car now. Could/would I then mount the sub-belt to the same bar I use for the shoulder harness?

No. They would need to mount well back on the floor. The author suggests using the lap belt mounting points. But that might be a little far apart. If you don’t mind drilling mounting holes then this might be better (after experimenting to find the ideal location). Otherwise probably better to use the lap belt mounting points and suffer a little.

One thing I’ve noticed is that a number of seats seem to have the hole for the sub belts too far forward. Not sure how one would resolve that. On the other hand, the author says any point behind the belt latch. So maybe this isn't a problem. And I would think if it was mounted not too far behind the latch then maybe the discomfort of wearing it wouldn't be too bad. Just a thought.

Stephen

Greg Fishman

Most sanctioning bodies that I have run across explicity state that you can not double up belts in one mounting location. They must have their own location. I would suggest looking at PCA or another racing organizations rules and have your safety equipment installed accordingly.

ypshan

I found that by mounting the sub-belt to the lap belt mounting points, one side is a bit too short and causes discomfort. By loosening the tripple loop into a double and inserting a piece of wood at the end loop (to stop the belt end from slipping out) I was able to lengthen the belt. I just got back from Lime Rock and am happy to report that both me and my wife drove comfortably with the sub-belt on.

The installer also put in a buckle that connects the two shoulder belts right at my chest so I won't slip out from between the belts during impact (I have regular power seats without belt slots). That seems to be a good idea especially for tall drivers. What do you think?

I have a question about HANS. Does it only help in a frontal crash or it can help when you hit the wall sideways?

ColorChange

Thanks Racer63.

I am trying to learn. Did he get off the throttle when he droped to the infield? Did he go both feet in when he spun? And finally, an impact like that is not going to be good. Do you think an side airbag would have made a difference?

Ypshan - p[lease be careful using things like wood. Maybe a steel rod, but please ... not wood. The forces get huge and it is unlikely the wood would hold up. I, and most others, recommend extreme caution when modifying belts and belt setups!

I had to run very large reinforcing plates in the fire wall of my Lambo in order to install my 6-point harness. Be careful!

racer63

Not much is known about his driver inputs. I have gone down that low before when forced down by another car. From that experience, my guess is that he overcorrected. The car gets squirrely, but can be gathered up with the right amount of steering input.

I don't think the side impact air bag would have helped as his head actually went outside of the window (partially) allowing it to contact the wall. The HANS would probably have helped, although even that's not certain as it is not exactly designed for that type of impact. Also, I'm not sure that side impact air bags are allowed in a race car, although they certainly are in a street/track car.