Just ordered a Turbo-Cab X50!
08-25-2003, 06:37 PM
#16
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Originally posted by David Shapiro
I've actually changed my order to delete the X50 kit and keep the ceramic brakes. At some point it will be off to Evo or Imagine for tweaking. It isn't known yet whether the Aerokit will be offered.
David
I've actually changed my order to delete the X50 kit and keep the ceramic brakes. At some point it will be off to Evo or Imagine for tweaking. It isn't known yet whether the Aerokit will be offered.
David
David, not a bad move at all. I mean for about $6000 you get yourself 505hp and 510lb/ft. If you do not care about the exhaust note, and can live with 488hp
, it will only cost about $3000. Now, that is a lot of bang for your buck!-Lou
08-26-2003, 09:49 AM
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Smart Move
David:
Smart move deleating the X50. The aftermarket mods blow it away. You might want to consider dumping the ceramic brakes if you really plan to track the car. I have heard noone say they love the brakes, in fact, some GT-2's are pulling them and putting on the big brembo's like Msindi. This is what I plan to do if I am not happy with the stock brakes and this is why I didn't get the ceramics. By the way, the Brembo's I believe are lighter thatn the ceramics!
Msindi - tell me about the performance of the big brebo's versus the stock brakes at the track (street is irrelevent).
Tim
Smart move deleating the X50. The aftermarket mods blow it away. You might want to consider dumping the ceramic brakes if you really plan to track the car. I have heard noone say they love the brakes, in fact, some GT-2's are pulling them and putting on the big brembo's like Msindi. This is what I plan to do if I am not happy with the stock brakes and this is why I didn't get the ceramics. By the way, the Brembo's I believe are lighter thatn the ceramics!
Msindi - tell me about the performance of the big brebo's versus the stock brakes at the track (street is irrelevent).
Tim
08-27-2003, 06:24 PM
#21
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Dave, are you sure you want to keep the PCCB brakes? A good amount of owners here don't think they are necessary unless tracking often. Also they need replacing often!
08-28-2003, 05:05 AM
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Don't get the PCCB. They are not worth the extra money and cost a lot ($10,000 per pair?) to replace.
They are not warrantied for track work and will disentegrate if used too hard on the road or track. See the Porsche GT3 website section on PCCB, it reads:
"With its major weight savings and exceptional fade resistance, even at very high temperatures, PCCB is the ideal option for genuine competition use. It is important to note, however, that circuit racing or similar extreme driving conditions can significantly reduce the overall life expectancy of even the most durable pads and discs. It is therefore important - as with conventional steel high-performance brakes - to have all PCCB components properly checked and replaced, if necessary, after every track event. "
I know of many cars equippped with PCCB brakes that have been converted back to steel brakes.
Guy
They are not warrantied for track work and will disentegrate if used too hard on the road or track. See the Porsche GT3 website section on PCCB, it reads:
"With its major weight savings and exceptional fade resistance, even at very high temperatures, PCCB is the ideal option for genuine competition use. It is important to note, however, that circuit racing or similar extreme driving conditions can significantly reduce the overall life expectancy of even the most durable pads and discs. It is therefore important - as with conventional steel high-performance brakes - to have all PCCB components properly checked and replaced, if necessary, after every track event. "
I know of many cars equippped with PCCB brakes that have been converted back to steel brakes.
Guy
08-28-2003, 08:22 AM
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It's amazing how rumors overtake facts.
Rumor: Ceramic brakes are not very durable
Fact: Ceramic brakes will outlast steel, the most credible problem with the ceramics has been pad wear (track use) using the P 90 pad, and possibly not bedding them properly or using the pad past it's useful life, subsequently causing damage to the rotor.
The wear problem has been solved by switching to the green pads (a la Cup Car) for track use only.
There is so much nonsense and drivel posted here about the ceramics by people who don't own them it undermines the credibility of the site.
If you've had a problem with the ceramics, post the car and circumstance, not what you heard from someone else or read in another posting.
To the best of my knowledge, there have been very few problems with ceramics, if they are maintained and cooled down properly. Sound familiar?
Rumor: Ceramic brakes are not very durable
Fact: Ceramic brakes will outlast steel, the most credible problem with the ceramics has been pad wear (track use) using the P 90 pad, and possibly not bedding them properly or using the pad past it's useful life, subsequently causing damage to the rotor.
The wear problem has been solved by switching to the green pads (a la Cup Car) for track use only.
There is so much nonsense and drivel posted here about the ceramics by people who don't own them it undermines the credibility of the site.
If you've had a problem with the ceramics, post the car and circumstance, not what you heard from someone else or read in another posting.
To the best of my knowledge, there have been very few problems with ceramics, if they are maintained and cooled down properly. Sound familiar?
08-28-2003, 09:00 AM
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OK - here are the facts.
My PCCB front discs were replaced at 9,000 miles on my GT2, since they were cracked around the holes and also had started to disentegrate in parts ie there were very small chunks missing from the disc.
I believe the previous owner used racing pads, based on what my dealer told me. The dealer also stated that a lot of ABS activation has a very detrimental impact on PCCB life.
I agree that for most road users this will not be a problem, but I stand by three points:
1. PCCB brakes do not offer sufficient improvement in braking to justify the large extra price.
2. Unlike the inital messages from Porsche that the ceramic discs would last forever, whatever the use, the message is now that they are to be considered consumables, like steel discs, but with a longer life.
3. The cost to replace them is immensely more than to replace steel discs. The figure I was quoted by my dealer in the UK for ceramic discs was 10 (yes ten) times the price for steel discs. This is huge potential liability for owners of PCCB equipped cars. I suggest someone asks their dealer for a quote for a replacement set of PCCB pads and rotors in the US and posts it here, so the info is available to compare.
There is at least one GT2 owner on here and another in the UK, that have switched to steel discs, when the original PCCB discs have needed replacing.
Guy
My PCCB front discs were replaced at 9,000 miles on my GT2, since they were cracked around the holes and also had started to disentegrate in parts ie there were very small chunks missing from the disc.
I believe the previous owner used racing pads, based on what my dealer told me. The dealer also stated that a lot of ABS activation has a very detrimental impact on PCCB life.
I agree that for most road users this will not be a problem, but I stand by three points:
1. PCCB brakes do not offer sufficient improvement in braking to justify the large extra price.
2. Unlike the inital messages from Porsche that the ceramic discs would last forever, whatever the use, the message is now that they are to be considered consumables, like steel discs, but with a longer life.
3. The cost to replace them is immensely more than to replace steel discs. The figure I was quoted by my dealer in the UK for ceramic discs was 10 (yes ten) times the price for steel discs. This is huge potential liability for owners of PCCB equipped cars. I suggest someone asks their dealer for a quote for a replacement set of PCCB pads and rotors in the US and posts it here, so the info is available to compare.
There is at least one GT2 owner on here and another in the UK, that have switched to steel discs, when the original PCCB discs have needed replacing.
Guy
08-28-2003, 01:17 PM
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Also read this thread for background:
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...highlight=pccb
FixedWing states "nothing but trouble"
Lonman replaced the PCCB with 380mm Brembo etc
Just trying to prove there are people with problems with PCCB.........
Guy
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...highlight=pccb
FixedWing states "nothing but trouble"
Lonman replaced the PCCB with 380mm Brembo etc
Just trying to prove there are people with problems with PCCB.........
Guy
08-28-2003, 01:58 PM
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Guy,
Thanks, I read them...it's the same handful of people repeating the same complaint. I stand by my earlier comments (above), if the the brakes are used and maintained properly they work great.
PS
I just spent most of a day at Leipzig in and watching the new Carrera GT run at speeds up to 240KPH, on the Formula One circuit. They had no problems with the ceramic brakes (heating or otherwise) on either car and were using the P 90 pad. Food for thought, especially since the car was going continuosly over a 3 Hour period, and then a stop for lunch.
It was the Program Director for the GT (also the GT2 and GT3) who clued me into the Green pads (p50) for track use, but never on the street because they are not good cold. He was also driving me around in the GT and I can tell you it's the first time I ever got out of a car with mild motion sickness, so he wasn't easy on it.
By the way, the GT really changes your perception of speed, it doesn't seem like it's going fast until the seat belt catches you. The brakes are one of the great things about this car.
He says the ceramics are a big improvement over the steel because of initial bite, and in the way they handle heat.
I saw, I experienced and my GT2 has had no problems (brakes), nor did the ones they let us drive around the track.
While there are always going to be problems, I think this issue has been overblown, cold comfort though when the problem occurs on you.
Thanks, I read them...it's the same handful of people repeating the same complaint. I stand by my earlier comments (above), if the the brakes are used and maintained properly they work great.
PS
I just spent most of a day at Leipzig in and watching the new Carrera GT run at speeds up to 240KPH, on the Formula One circuit. They had no problems with the ceramic brakes (heating or otherwise) on either car and were using the P 90 pad. Food for thought, especially since the car was going continuosly over a 3 Hour period, and then a stop for lunch.
It was the Program Director for the GT (also the GT2 and GT3) who clued me into the Green pads (p50) for track use, but never on the street because they are not good cold. He was also driving me around in the GT and I can tell you it's the first time I ever got out of a car with mild motion sickness, so he wasn't easy on it.
By the way, the GT really changes your perception of speed, it doesn't seem like it's going fast until the seat belt catches you. The brakes are one of the great things about this car.
He says the ceramics are a big improvement over the steel because of initial bite, and in the way they handle heat.
I saw, I experienced and my GT2 has had no problems (brakes), nor did the ones they let us drive around the track.
While there are always going to be problems, I think this issue has been overblown, cold comfort though when the problem occurs on you.
08-28-2003, 03:26 PM
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Colm,
As I've said, I'm not disagreeing with you, just making sure that people know there have been genuine issues with PCCB, though they will probably not affect 95% of people. People just need to understand they are not as indestructible as Porsche said at first.
Mine were replaced by Porsche as a goodwill gesture since I had only had the car 4 weeks, so it was clear to all that it was down to the previous owner. However, they made it clear to me that PCCB was not warrantied for Track use, whatever pads were used.
The Leipzig trip sounds great, I'm sure the rides were real fun (I've only been to the Stuttgart factory). The low weight will also help the brakes immensely, I never had any problems with brakes in my 993RS, which was also under 1300kg. A 996 Turbo Cab carries over 400kg of extra bulk compared to a CGT, so that won't help, but then most Cab's don't get driven as hard as coupes.......
Maybe it's me, but my GT2 doesn't feel like it has the same initial brake bite as my 993RS had and that disappoints me. It may be due to the massive difference in speed perception though, as my GT2 never feels that fast, whereas the RS always did (though the GT2 is much faster). I think it's down to the sound deadening and superior NVH of the 996.
It's always good to hear two sides to the debate though, so people can draw their own conclusions.
Guy
As I've said, I'm not disagreeing with you, just making sure that people know there have been genuine issues with PCCB, though they will probably not affect 95% of people. People just need to understand they are not as indestructible as Porsche said at first.
Mine were replaced by Porsche as a goodwill gesture since I had only had the car 4 weeks, so it was clear to all that it was down to the previous owner. However, they made it clear to me that PCCB was not warrantied for Track use, whatever pads were used.
The Leipzig trip sounds great, I'm sure the rides were real fun (I've only been to the Stuttgart factory). The low weight will also help the brakes immensely, I never had any problems with brakes in my 993RS, which was also under 1300kg. A 996 Turbo Cab carries over 400kg of extra bulk compared to a CGT, so that won't help, but then most Cab's don't get driven as hard as coupes.......
Maybe it's me, but my GT2 doesn't feel like it has the same initial brake bite as my 993RS had and that disappoints me. It may be due to the massive difference in speed perception though, as my GT2 never feels that fast, whereas the RS always did (though the GT2 is much faster). I think it's down to the sound deadening and superior NVH of the 996.
It's always good to hear two sides to the debate though, so people can draw their own conclusions.
Guy
08-28-2003, 03:53 PM
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Here's a repost of my reply to another thread:
I was about to change my '04 TT Cab order to remove the PCCB option when I read the short rotor-life postings. Some users with REALLY short life experiences (like 1500 miles) on the track contrasted to 100,000 or 150,000 mile expectations from Porsche factory sources really got my head spinning. How could they both be correct?
Here's my theory: The really quick-to-burn-up guys were fooled by the lack of fade. Most racers are sensitive to fade, and adjust their driving so that they can work around it by not going in as deep, etc.
However, they consider fade as an enemy holding them back, not a friendly warning of impending mechanical doom.
With iron rotor brakes of the standard sort, the fade shows up before one can really hurt the rotors. Change the fluid and pads, and, bingo, one is back in good shape to try again.
Apparently, ceramic brake rotors don't fade nearly as early or as much under really heavy conditions, and it may be possible to badly hurt them, without the traditional danger signs appearing first. If the car keeps stopping, one keeps going in deeper and deeper, until ...? Catastrophic thermal overload. The rotor becomes the fuse!
I propose that track use of PCCB may be an intellectual exercise that is very unusual for the average racer and may require painful acclimatization.
With 95% street driving and a few DE events, I am no longer much worried about PCCB rotor life in my situation. I kept the TT Cab order as is, with the PCCB option on the list.
I was about to change my '04 TT Cab order to remove the PCCB option when I read the short rotor-life postings. Some users with REALLY short life experiences (like 1500 miles) on the track contrasted to 100,000 or 150,000 mile expectations from Porsche factory sources really got my head spinning. How could they both be correct?
Here's my theory: The really quick-to-burn-up guys were fooled by the lack of fade. Most racers are sensitive to fade, and adjust their driving so that they can work around it by not going in as deep, etc.
However, they consider fade as an enemy holding them back, not a friendly warning of impending mechanical doom.
With iron rotor brakes of the standard sort, the fade shows up before one can really hurt the rotors. Change the fluid and pads, and, bingo, one is back in good shape to try again.
Apparently, ceramic brake rotors don't fade nearly as early or as much under really heavy conditions, and it may be possible to badly hurt them, without the traditional danger signs appearing first. If the car keeps stopping, one keeps going in deeper and deeper, until ...? Catastrophic thermal overload. The rotor becomes the fuse!
I propose that track use of PCCB may be an intellectual exercise that is very unusual for the average racer and may require painful acclimatization.
With 95% street driving and a few DE events, I am no longer much worried about PCCB rotor life in my situation. I kept the TT Cab order as is, with the PCCB option on the list.
08-28-2003, 04:07 PM
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Mike,
I'm pleased you have been able to reach a conclusion, with the benefit of the differing views in the posts above hopefully enabling it to be a well-informed one (which is what this forum is about).
Guy
I'm pleased you have been able to reach a conclusion, with the benefit of the differing views in the posts above hopefully enabling it to be a well-informed one (which is what this forum is about).
Guy
08-28-2003, 04:38 PM
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Regardless of benefits pro or against PCCB, and I admit I chimed in regarding problems i had "heard" with the PCCB, the point I had really has to do with the car. I do not really see a turbo cab as a track car, do the ceramic brakes offer real benefit on the street over the steel unit? If not, why get the ceramic brakes even with the potential of having to drop 10 large for replacement of pads and rotors??
-Lou
-Lou