Sure, it's subjective, so let's agree on some ways on distilling down what makes the driving experience pleasurable. I do not get pleasure out of a marginally faster lap time (if I did I'd buy a GTR or something), I get pleasure out of how the car feels under my control. How does the car stimulate the visceral senses?

1) Noise
I have a PSE on my C4S. The exhaust, burbles and pops with upshift and downshifts. I can control the symphony the exhaust and engine makes with the throttle and the momentary time it is in between gears. A little blip before a downshift to rev match, and you get rewarding aural reward. With the tiptronic, it's just one endless drone, with momentary transitions as the car shifts gears.

2) Shifting gears

The interplay of tension and heft between the steering, brake pedals, clutch, gear shift and accelerator. The mechanical precision of the gear shifter makes it feel like well greased mechanical instrument, like cocking an expensive rifle. Shifting gears in an automatic by moving a lever or pressing a couple of buttons is not quite the same thing.

3) Downshifts - The TipTronic does not blip the throttle and rev match like some of the newer automatics. Hence, there is an unsatisfying lunge whenever you downshift.

4) Challenge & Reward - Since humans aren't perfect drivers, I'm always challenging myself to shift better. There is something deeply satisfying as executing a heel and toe before a corner, and rev matching perfectly. This challenge keeps me an alert driver, and I feel like I'm involved with the machinery.


5) Gearing and gear ratios.

The tiptronic is a 5 sp transmission. Since it effectively starts in 2nd, you are pretty much dealing with 4 speeds most of the time. Modern automatics are now up to 8 speeds. With a manual you can always tell what gear you're in without looking at the transmission by the speed and the engine revs. With the tiptronic, you have to look at the LED lights on the dash, because you lose sense of what gear you're in.

6) Response time

No matter how good the software, the Tip is always reactionary and a step behind the driver. It has to rely on a driver input before acting. I know you can shift it manually, but most Tip drivers just drive it in 'D.' With a manual you are in full control of the shift points.

6) Connection between the drivetrain and the wheels - I elaborated on this point in an earlier post. When I took my C4S to the track, it really was an exquisite feeling to be able to adjust the rear tire slip angle precisely with the throttle, something a torque converter just saps away.

Why do you think a Tip doesn't detract from the driving experience?

 

Jury - you nailed it. I have a tip and w/ as much time on the track I now wish it wasn't. Get it if you don't like changing gears or perhaps if you will be in heavy traffic all the time - otherwise, get the manual.

The most annoying thing about the Tip is that it does have a nanny - it will change gears on you even if in "manual". The Tranny Nanny (perfect name) works with PSM to control what the wheels are doing. For example, coming up T5 at Road Atlanta - I am full on the gas gunning up the hill and rub the curbing as I do...PSM & Tip decide on their own to short shift to stop the wheel spin...viola' I am now in 4th and have no torque.

City Driving - 8/10 (not sexy as manual, but convenient)
Track Driving - 5/10 (not as fun, but it will do)
Performance - 9/10 (it can do the job)

 

Drive a Tip, decide for yourself.

Are you a racer as your name implies? You may want the manual.

I've spent too much of my life racing already. I have a 6 speed which is fun, but I could be ok with a Tip.

We have a Tip Boxster that's been in garage for over a decade and it's still a hoot.

 

I have owned a long line of 911s. The last three have been tips. A 1994 964, a 2000 Carrera and now a 2003 Turbo. I was scared to death when I bought the 964 that I would not enjoy it when driving as an enthusiast (these cars have also been my daily drivers), but nothing could be further from the truth. For me, I am definitely faster on mountain/canyon roads and on track DE events then I was with my manuals. Especially when downshifting under hard braking from high speed. I always shift manually, the more throttle, the crisper the shift, but very smooth in stop and go traffic. I am looking forward to my next 911 which will have PDK.

 

I agree. Well if it's the noise you're after, I can help there. I have an EBWerks masterpiece going on order with Enrique, and I assure you it will be plenty noisy in all the right areas. Endless drone? Not been my experience, but whatever. Your car will drone endlessly at a constant speed just like my Tip does, and as speed changes, so does RPM. And so does noise....

Agreed, though on track, I'm still playing with throttle, brake, and steering just as much as with a manual, and the tranny plays along. I just don't have to heal toe, I can left foot brake and give a quick jab trail throttle at turn in to downshift and get just the right push on apex. It's a different dance to be sure, but it's still a dance.

Unsatisfying lunge? There is no unsatifying lunge on downshift. I think your mistaking the TipS in the Turbo from the earlier Tip in the Carrera. It's not the same tranny. With 250 shift maps, it's not lunging on downshifts, that would unsettle the chassis at turnin, and Porsche engineers are smarter than that. , A quick jab and release at the throttle while trail braking gives whatever gear yeilds 5K rpm, mine matches revs perfectly on down shift, based on speed and braking and lateral acceleration, there is no throttle blip per se, but there is no lunging either. Remember in an aggressive driving scenario, I'm either manually punching buttons to get the gear I want/need, trail braking with a touch of throttle etc. It handles it all with ease, smooth as silk with practice. Again, it's a different dance, but it's still a dance.

And it sounds like you've talked yourself into a 6 speed then, and that's absolutely awesome! Look you can't really make the decision without asking the right questions, which you've done. It sounds like you want to be involved and derive a lot of your driving satisfaction from attending to the details. You'd have made a good steam locomotive engineer My only counterpoint is, I can be almost as involved with TipS as you with the manual, if and when I choose. But in heavy traffic, it's no pleasure(for me anyway) endlessly shifting up and down. And at highway speeds its a non-issue since we're both in top gear anyway.

Part of the beauty of the Turbo is the endlessly wide powerband and the massive amounts of torque available down low, this is why the early 930's also only had 4 speeds when the contemporary Carrera's had 5 speeds, there's so much torque it's not needed. But, it's there when you want it, touch a button or mash the throttle, and there's first gear. For a whopping 1.5 secs till you or the nanny upshifts at redline. !st in the TipS is about like 4th in the 930's. My old 77' 930 almost never saw 4th gear, way too tall, almost an Autobahn only gear. It would hit 80 in 2nd, so 3rd gear was plenty high for freeway driving. As for knowing what gear I'm in, ummm...who cares? The car knows what gear it's in. I'm interested in hearing RPM, my perceived speed, brake, throttle, the tranny picks the gear as needed, or as I select it. Since I know what the approach to redline sounds like, if/when I hear the RPM's approaching I either bang the up button or let Nana do it. It's very satisfying, and almost as involving as a clutch pedal and a gear shift **** when I want it to be. The point of the TipS is, when I don't want it or need to be, it's just a nice automatic. Not necessarily a bad thing.

Agreed, though the buttons are pretty durn fast, and in a DE track environment, with 250 shift maps to choose from, it doesn't take but a microsecond or three to decide giddy up cowboy is the reaction desired.

Ummmmm...not really. The TC is pretty much locked in all but a stopped at a red light condition. The clutch packs are releasing/engaging on gears sets on command, but the TC clutches are locked very early, you can literally feel it lock on a hard take off from stop. The once the TC locks, the difference in drive line losses is only a few percent more, and far less than most butt-o-meters can feel.

Well we've just got different ideas of what constitutes a detraction from the experience. And that's absolutely OK, and indeed what makes the whole coversation a fun exercise. Truly, there's no animosity here one way or the other, at least not from me. The VAST majority opinion is in favor of the 6 Speed. But TipS or 6-speed, you're picking fly poop out of pepper, they are both honest to gawd supercars, and each of us gets to decide which supercar suits our tastes and driving preferences. What a terrible situation to be in right? I've decided to take the load off part of the time, but I can get my hands and feet dirty dancing when and as in depth as I need or want. You and others want the dancing to be non-stop, and that's great you've decide that. I was just trying to point out the TipS isn't your run of the mill automatic. It's no PDK of course, but it's damn good, and can be made better if one so desires with uprated TQ and shift computer from EVOMS.

Best of luck with your decision.

Cheers
Mikey

 

The Tip vs Manual debate proves that:
Automatic owners might make excuses;
Manual owners might brag that they are enthusiasts;
The fact is, one can get a better deal on a Tip because of that myth.
They sell for less, and the initial cost is a significant $ option.
In Europe, Tips sell for more..

 

The tip trans actually starts off in first when it is cold and second when it is warmed up.

 

My tip has never upshifted on me in manual mode until I hit the redline and at certain tracks I drive I am on the curbs and the PSM is kicking constantly. There must be something wrong with yours.

 

Hurley Haywood preferred a tiptronic as well.

 

No - it is working just fine. It upshifts exactly as you described for those reasons.

 

DSorry, my post was not very clear. I think you misunderstood what I wrote. My tip never upshifts because of the PSM. It only upshifts when the engine hits the redline, as it should.

If yours is upsifting below the redline there might something wrong with the programing. The PSM should not trigger an upshift if the trans is locked into manual mode.

 

I have to ask how much time you have spent behind the wheel of a tip or PDK car at a racetrack?

 

None.

 

Then how do you know a tip is less engaging to drive?

 

^^I fail to see the logic of that argument. 99% of my driving is on the street, and I find the Tip less engaging than a manual for the reasons stated in my previous post.