jasonfreed

and there is no chip soldered in?

I bought an EPL K24/18g kit and plan to have it installed over the next week or two on my new to me '02 X50.

Anyway, I went to have a baseline dyno done today at CPT (Chicago Performance and Tuning).

They use a Dyno Dynamics dyno. Al, the owner, owns a 996TT (a plain jane k16 car) and has previous dyno information on both stock and flashed power. He made ~330whp (dyno done in 4wd). Then made 380whp after a flash and exhaust install (not sure which flash).

We put my car on (a supposedly stock '02 X50) and it made 418whp (and approx 450ft-lbs to the wheels).

Boost was 1bar to redline. I called the previous owner (not the 1st owner) after I saw boost hit 1.0bar on the boost gauge. He had no clue if it was chipped when he bought it.

So, it seems obvious to me that it's chipped.

Is there anyway to find out which company did it if there are no markings on the ECU?

ECU is comnig out first thing Mon AM as are the turbos and the fun begins.

Any advice would be appreciated!


Thanks.

Chuck Jones

That's a good question for Kevin or Tony....can you guys see any coded cyber-serial numbers or other identifiers that verify it's your product.....logic says yes....just the coding of the chip should tell them.

jasonfreed

I'm hoping Tony will be able to figure it out (that's where the ECU is being sent anyway).

I'd like to be able to sell a complete chipped ECU and put a stocker in to flash.

There is really no reason to erase and flash over a pefectly good flash (providing it's a good company that did it).

Chuck Jones

I would say no...that as long as the company that installed the flash is a reliable company backed up by good references from folks who have used their products for some time....there seems no reason to flash over someone else's product....that is unless the new product gave you something the old one didn't....but for street applications, there's not much more you'd get from one over another. Racing is another matter.

wross996tt

Umm...completely disagree on this. My flash is designed specifically for my hardware and altitude...the other program (GIAC) wasn't even close...and GIAC is a respected flash.

I know of no way of determining whose flash it is for certain.

jasonfreed

Chuck -

I agree with wross996tt. I meant to say,

"no reason to flash over it" - meaning, I could sell the entire flashed ECU and then use a virgin ECU to have EPL's flash put on for my specific K24/18g hybrid set-up.

I didn't mean to imply I was going to use this current unknown flash with my new set-up.

wross996tt - - agreed. You need a hardware specific flash. I was hoping I could find out what flash it is and then sell it CHEAP so someone else could enjoy it and then use a stock ECU to put the EPL sauce on.

wross996tt

So as I posted elsewhere....some of the major tuners may have records for flash by vin, but I don't know how to access it or if they would release it. Historically there have been arguments about selling second-hand flashes (whether it is legal, ethical, etc).....I don't know the answer, but some of the major tuners are opposed to allowing this to happen (as this would effect their market). I would also say that some of the tuners could probably give a good guess as to what the flash is by looking at the output numbers....

Exchanging ECUs would require recoding and you would lose stored info that may be questioned if you want to re-sell the thing later.

jasonfreed

hmmmmm....I've been in the B5 S4 world for a LONG time and selling a chip you bought is not looked down upon at all.

I would have no guilt selling it at all. It's just a flash, that I own on my ECU.

Tuners always get their panties in a bunch over all this stuff.

Not an issue for the end user.

I was unware of any history re: arguments over this and certainly am not trying to open a can of worms here.

I guess the issue is this, I could care less what a tuner thinks about me re-selling software I own.

There is nothing illegal about it. If I find out whose software it is, and I sell it, they are welcome to sue me

Now, if I pulled the code off the chip and started flashing the same code onto other ECU's, then yeah, that's an issue.

But, I think if you buy software to be flashed onto a chip, the contents of that chip are now yours. Again, NOT to be pulled off and reflashed for others.

Kind of like installing a computer program that you paid for on a home computer and then selling the entire system to someone else - they obviously get the software that is on it.

wross996tt

....well....ummm....I was trying to prevent another thread jack to discuss the selling of flashes....I don't care what you do. It does seem that P-car flashes are somewhat different than the audi world...not taking sides, just trying to give you a perspective on the market for such a flash. Please don't shoot the messenger. BTW this is fun having different conversations on two sites....

jasonfreed

haha - I was laughing about posting back to you on 2 different sites as well!

OK, no more discussion on the merits of selling used software then

I just can't wait to get the EPL stuff installed and re-dyno - - should be fun

Chuck Jones

This issue has implications in copyrite law....but it would have to be a matter set forth in a contractual agreement between the seller and the buyer at the time of the sale....the do's and dont's of reselling a product....much like the disclaimer that a lot of manufacturers put on their poducts...."guaranteed for as long as you own the vehicle".

This doesn't appear to be a copyrite infringement becasue you're not copying anything....just reselling what you already paid for....but I agree with WROSS...I don't want to start another reselling flash thread. There's previous discussions on the subject....use the search function.

jasonfreed

I certainly do not want to bring up a bunch of old stuff.

Just hoping to find a way to identify what I have, then I can figure out what to do with it.

wross996tt

IMHO...(and what I would do)...is flash over the flash with Tony's program and be done with it. No swapping ECUs and potential buyer/seller issues. You didn't pay for the first flash anyway.

jasonfreed

Well, considering my ECU will be at EPL in a few days and my turbos should be modified soon after and everything will go back toegther quickly, I don't have much time to mess with it.

The most likely thing will be just that - flashing over it.

I'd still like to know what it is.

I guess that explains why my car had so many type I and type II overrevs noted during the PPI.

The type IIs were MANY operating hours from the time of purchase so I'm sure the rev limiter must be a bit higher

adam_

I don't think I weighed in on this before....

Tuners who fail to assert their legal rights to the software - or who fail to tell the buyer what rights they have to use the software, by declaring them in writing at the time of sale and/or installation, have almost no protection against someone re-selling one copy or many copies.

There is a REASON all the software you buy for your computer has legal documents with it- there is a reason why CD's or iTunes have legal notices and copyrights associated with them.... that REASON is that unless the seller claims what they are selling is copyrighted, and/or tells the buyer it cannot be resold, their ability to protect 'downstream' sales is reduced,

I have not seen tuners/vendors that claim such copyrights (but then I haven't bought many flashes or chips)- I do see people getting their panties in a twist over "that's not right"... but if the tuner doesn't at the very least create a legally defensible claim, why should we care?

Everyone assumes a tune is "like a song" or "like a software program"... but this is true only if it has been copyrighted, or a claim of protection was made when it was sold.

To add a wrinkle, didn't Bosch copyright the DME when they sold it to Porsche? Tuners that steal bosch subroutines, or who hack bosch code and resell it, may be on questionable legal grounds...

My two cents. I'd never copy this stuff, sometimes you don't need laws, just good old fashioned integrity.





A

PS I did search, musta looked for the wrong thing.