KPG

Joe, I am with you on this one. EVOMS did it better and faster, period.No smoke , no mirrors. Nothing should be taken away from that accomplishment or Mark's for that matter. It is now Protomotive's turn to raise the bar and I am very confident they will. When they do, I will be there congratulating them as I am sure you will as well. At the end of the day, the 9 sec run is a stunning achievement by both tuners and that is what matters. Kevin

markski

Kevin,
I agree with what you said... just that this is not protomotive we are talking about.. this is I... If I could I would take out the AC, powersteering, abs.... skinnies, CF hood, fenders, doors.... and make it GO. but I can't.
Protomotive is not going to raise anything... they dont have the resourses to do what Evoms did... If its not Scott or I then it will not be done. and I do not see myself beating up the car any much longer... Yes it will be interesting to see what Joe's car will do... and how far he is willing to push it...

no I didnt drive my car and I didnt hide that... I was 700 miles away. we got the car to pass a 9 second run at the track in tulsa so I left it there( also the tuner is close by(3.5 hours away LOL) just in case something happened.. and it did). I could never run a 9 sec run here in chicago... not enough safety requiremets met. we broke 3 sets of axles and changed 3 clutches.... (my tuner kicked in and helped.)
I work on the weekends and I could never make it on saturday.. so yes I had someone who knows how to drive these cars do it for me. we did it with a slipping clutch and 1.42 bars of boost. second run the clutch gave out in 1st gear.
I can not afford to blow my heads so I cant turn up the boost. I weighed my car again and its 3150 without driver... that is still considerably too much to run low 9s.... Unfortunately I do not want to dedicate this car as a drag car only so I have to deal with what I have... Im sure if I dropped the weight to 2800 lbs and run 1.7 bars I would run a half a second faster...
The run was in 88 degree temps as well...

markski

KPG

Mark, I didnt mean Proto, as a company, was going to raise the bar but their cars may.Scott has spoken of further upgrades to his car so he would be a good candidate i would assume.I agree that this is something you need to want badly since it is hard on the car and the finances. You sure did prove to me anyway, that this is not a route I am interested in. At the end of the day, you have a 9 sec TT parked in your driveway...Not many can or will be able to say that

markski

Kev,
at my point it comes down to money nothing more... if I had more to blow I would simply turn the **** on EBC and make it a go..... Im .3 bars and 250 lbs away from running mid to low 9s.... I'm just going to go there...

joetwint

The competition between tuners is a good thing......think back one year ago .......there was only one car in the 140+mph category,now there are three(Mark's Scott's and mine) and one in the 150's(Todd Z),THIS IS A GOOD THING,and I look forward to seeing more Proto,Evoms AND UMW(from what I have seen these UMW cars will raise the bar even further) cars raising the bar,its a good thing for all of us.Trying to discredit Evoms run with it being a "tuner" car yada yada is a copout and an excuse sort of like "I ran 9's but I don't have any proof because it's on a vid on my friends cell phone that my dog ate".There are plenty of excuses I can come up with why any one of these cars didn't run faster but that would just be sour grapes.No?

rafiki

I am not taking anything away from Evoms....
I did not doubt that they achieved it...but it was a marketing exercise....they threw all their resources into it to become the first tuner to 9 sec.

Where's the passion in that?
Why the sudden interest in beating everybody to 9 sec when only privateers have been very publicly trying?

Did they use any form of traction contrtol..we'll never know.
How much did the car weigh..we'll never know
How much money did they put into is..we'll never know

It was a marketing exercise, it was done in secret and promoted after the event...(that conveniently prevents scrutinizing of the car) to get to 9 sec at all costs.

Because of these unknowns...you don't just expect us to believe what we are told regarding the above do you?

Smoke and mirrors my friend and nothing less.

Markski's car is privatelly owned and street driven...BIG difference.

His not paying to say this and I have no affiliations (my car only has an aftermarket exhaust !) His quest has been for the truth in performance packages for the 996tt.

Any such quest is always going to threaten some tuners..although they not need worry...everyone has different performance needs....in this regard, I take nopthing away from Evom's but believe it was a purely a commercially driven exercise...and I didn't feel as happy for them as i did when Markski achieved the mark.

LuisGT3

Im with you brotha.!
If anybody is doubting the Evo run, they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Period.

LuisGT3

You my friend, are completely clueless.

Craig.

Really??? Pejoratively labeling EVOMS' tremendous accomplishment "smoke and mirrors" multiple times is "not taking anything away from Evoms"??? At least be intellectually honest about your blatant attempt to undermine and discredit EVOMS' 9 second run.

First, as has been posted countless times, EVOMS "threw" remarkably little resources at their 9 second car. To the contrary, the car was thrown together by EVOMS on a whim, in a matter of a few weeks, after the car sat and gathered dust for the preceding year while parts were harvested from the car for customer cars.

Conversely, Protomotive and Mark have spent the last year+ building, tuning, rebuilding, retuning, reconfiguring, and perfecting Mark's car, with the expressly, publicized goal of breaking into the 9s. When Mark's original set-up did not break into the 9s, notwithstanding NUMEROUS attempts and extensive efforts, Protomotive and Mark put the car back under the knife and reconfigured the car, with the express goal of getting into the 9s. There is nothing wrong with Protomotive's and Mark's dedication to their goal, and they should be applauded for having achieved their goal. I have privately and publicly congratulated Mark SEVERAL TIMES (long before the time was even posted). However, it is wholly inaccurate to suggest that EVOMS dedicated greater resources to the goal of breaking into the 9s than did Protomotive and Mark.

Moreover, it is equally inappropriate to suggest that EVOMS's accomplishment was somehow lacking in "passion," as compared to Mark's accomplishment. Regardless of whether a customer or shop car, it takes incredible dedication and passion to achieve a 9 second run, and the fact that EVOMS did it first, in their own car, does not make them any less passionate about the achievement.

To the best of my knowledge, EVOMS spent FAR, FAR less on their 9 second car than Mark spent on his. I will not publicly disclose how much Mark spent (I only know a ballpark), as that is Mark's personal business, but the figure is bewildering to say the least. It is FAR more than EVOMS spent (to the best of my knowledge). Again, there is nothing wrong with Mark's tremendous expenditures (which have resulted in advancements that we all can benefit from), but don't falsely suggest that EVOMS spent exorbitant sums, because that simply is not the case.

That is absolutely correct. However, Protomotive was joined at the hip with Mark in their joint, mutual pursuit of a 9 second pass. Protomtiove was as dedicated as Mark to this goal. Knighton even went to the track with Mark and worked on the car real time at the track. Mark and Knighton were joined at the track by another Protomotiove customer, Bobby, who is an experienced quarter mile driver, and Bobby drove the car for Mark and Protomotive.

Moreover, in terms of publicity and exposure, Protomotive benefits from Mark's accomplishment, just as EVOMS benefits from its accomplishment.

It is your prerogative to be a non-believer. However, absent facts demonstrating misrepresentations on the part of EVOMS (and I am not aware of any such facts), your disbelief is nothing more than an empty, emotional response that carries no credence or credibility. EVOMS has published a videotape of the run (the link is in this thread), so the fact of the run is beyond dispute. EVOMS has also disclosed the details of the car that made the run. I am not aware of any accusation, let alone a factually supported accusation, that EVOMS' description of the car is inaccurate. Therefore, the information you suggest has been concealed is in fact firmly lodged in the public domain for all to read.

I am disappointed in you Alex . . . you are better than that!

Amen brutha!!!

Are you suggesting that EVOMS removed the powersteering or brakes. I am certainly not aware of that.

Come on Mark. You know full well that EVOMS' 9 second run was NOT the product of superior resources. To the contrary, as discussed above, EVOMS put their 9 second car together in a few weeks, whereas you spent over a year on your car. Likewise, I am confident that you spent FAR more on your car than EVOMS did on theirs. Moreover, your car has several technological advancements that EVOMS' car does not have, including GT3 software, intake cams, GT3RS heads, etc. Are you really suggesting that you built an inferior car because of lesser resources? To the contrary, I suspect you believe your car is vastly superior to EVOMS' car (for certain of the reasons cited herein), thus belying your assertion that "lack of resources" was the overriding reason for EVOMS's superior run. In fact, one could argue that the time, money, and technological resources applied to your car far exceed those applied to EVOMS' car.

You have suggested numerous times that EVOMS's 9 second time was primarily the result of weight savings. How exactly is it that Protomotive "lacks the resources" to make you car lighter in ways that EVOMS did? The fact is that you also went to great lengths to remove weight from your car (far greater lengths than Scott did, and far greater lengths than most anyone else would). However, you admittedly did not remove as much weight as EVOMS. Don't blame "lack of resources" for this. Rather, you simply made a decision to retain certain components. Frankly, I agree with your decision. However, it is not an issue of resources.

Don't undermine your incredible achievement by prognosticating about what your car would do under different conditions or circumstances. You are better than that.

The bottom line is this: MARK'S 9 SECOND RUN IS A TREMENDOUS ACCOMPLISHMENT THAT DESERVES OUR COLLECTIVE PRAISE AND CONGRATULATIONS, REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANY OTHER CARS HAVE RUN BEFORE OR MAY RUN AFTER. Mark set a goal and he achieved it. Mark's dedication and passion is commendable. Had this thread remained about Mark's incredible achievement, we would not be having this unfortunate debate which detracts from Mark's achievement. However, neither EVOMS, nor its customers, started this debate. Rather, Rafiki elected to sidetrack this thread with ridiculous accusations and pejorative references that compelled a response, and others quickly jumped on the bandwagon. Hopefully this thread will get back on tract and we can focus on praising Mark for a job well done.

As I have said many times before, CONGRATULATION MARK!!!!

Craig

LuisGT3

Great post Craig.

This thread is not to bash Evo but to congratulate Mark for his great run!
Congrats again Mark!

RennTechV12

Wasn't this whole "shop car" arguement settled here:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s...t=85370&page=4

Red9

That is the most sensible( is it the only!) thing you have ever posted anywhere.Let people have opinions-- even if you disagree-- it does not require long dissections of every word written. This argument is about "how long is a piece of string" .There is no definative set of rules-- only everyone's interpretation of what each of us sees as the criteria.

joetwint

Answers in red!

markski

So Im gone for a day and I come back to this I really hate these kind of discussions becasue it only starts things up... I will just respond to questions and or assumptions about my car....
I dont even know where to begin... but from the look of it Ill start with
Craig's post since he wrote a dissertation LOL
Craig:
"Are you suggesting that EVOMS removed the powersteering or brakes. I am certainly not aware of that."
my answer: no not at all... no suggestions... but they did have lightweight PCCB brakes which are much lighter( not sure how much they cost but Im sure at least $10K) and that I can not afford. As far as powersteering I have no info on that. But if I was going to lighten it up more thats is what would go along with AC.

Craig :
"Protomotive and Mark have spent the last year+ building, tuning, rebuilding, retuning, reconfiguring, and perfecting Mark's car, with the expressly, publicized goal of breaking into the 9s. When Mark's original set-up did not break into the 9s, notwithstanding NUMEROUS attempts and extensive efforts, Protomotive and Mark put the car back under the knife and reconfigured the car, with the express goal of getting into the 9s."

Answer: you make it sound liek I took the engine out again... reconfigured my heads and redid my turbos. etc.... not so... you know very well that we changed to bigger injectors- Just liek you recently did Craig. Thus with that new calibration HAD to be done... and Im sure u had to do it too. Does that mean you and I retuned, reconfigured, rebuild our cars? No I don't think so. Funny thing that high boost calibration was never complete becasue the clutch blew out on the dyno. I also had floating problems down the track cutting into prescious time.... Yes Todd helped out on the alignment.... but again- that does not seem like " extensive efforts" but more liek a set up issue. I dont have Motons nor an Alignment rack at home. LOL
The reason it took so long( 4 months) is becasue we always had some lingering problem.... 3 broken axles... 3 clutch.... boost leak, broken tranny mount, broken header... - all this over the course of 4 1/4 track days... Yes we only went to the track 4 times ran the car 7 times total and ran what we ran. It sounds to me more like a car being fixed and or set up rather then "Protomotive and Mark put the car back under the knife and reconfigured the car, with the express goal of getting into the 9s."
Again, we had 3 broken axles, 3 clutches, broken tranny mount, header crack, boost leak.... with these symtoms abay I dont think we had a chance. Bobby helped out fixing some stuff and Todd helped with the clutch and axles... thats it.

Craig :
"Come on Mark. You know full well that EVOMS' 9 second run was NOT the product of superior resources. To the contrary, as discussed above, EVOMS put their 9 second car together in a few weeks, whereas you spent over a year on your car. Likewise, I am confident that you spent FAR more on your car than EVOMS did on theirs. "

answer:
Craig, we went to the track the 3rd time and ran 10.1 on stock axles ( 3rd run on this set up)... at that time the record was 10.37. I can likewise ask u why it took Evoms so long to run 9s??? I hope u get the point. If u say that it only took evoms a few weeks vs. 1 year on my car and a whole lot more cash on my end then I ask you one 2 questions: 1. if it was so easy, cheap, and blazingly FAST to build why didnt they run 9s 3 years ago in the gt800 when they built it? They had a fair share of track time since then in warm and cold seasons... and 2. what makes you think they spent far less then I? Yes I proabably have a little more in my head assuming they have stock ... but my head was about the saem price of the Bogart rims and tires Evoms is using... O rings cost a bit but I got that as good will thanks to Protomotive. Not to mention the fact that if you add up all the costs associated with different build outs they did and add up the trip to NJ Im sure they are far and beyond what I spent. Craig, your a great lawyer with ur keen sense of words... but I feel liek u are taking a stab at me... so I am responding with dignity.... look at it logically please. If you add it all up Im sure they spent a lot more trying over the last few years then I. BTW, I am only responding to your assumptions and not attacking Evoms in this case. So please guys, JOe, JOe, Louis, Craig, etc. dont jump all over me. Craig disected my post and Im responding to what I think is true and what is assumed true.
I dont have lightweight PCCB brakes($10 to 12K)... I dont have $6500 motons. I dont have $2850 LSD. I dont have lighweight Bogard skinny rims... Im sure I can come up with more but you get the idea. It 's not just the engine build that matters... BTW, I didnt have a spare $4500 clutch and $2200 axles liek they did when things broke.( no harm intended but the point is made that it take cash to do it.) BTW, they used single disk ceramic clutch that is great for the 1/4 but not so for the street. I on the other hand have a great street clutch that holds and is smooth like stock but not so great for the 1/4 and it slips. A simple example Craig, just to show you how much a specific clutch will perform under one extreme condition and fail under another.) If I had the money I would buy a single disk ceramic and or Iron clutch just for the track and then swap out to the triple carbon when done. Evoms realized that the triple carbon Tiltons do not hold and or go bad quickly under these conditions. They are now using clutch master from Cali.( info provided not varified but I believe its true).

Craig:
"Are you really suggesting that you built an inferior car because of lesser resources? "

answer: no not at all... I just dont have the resourses to fix things over and over when they brake..... nor was my original build meant for 1/4 only. Also, u need resources to make a fast 1/4 mile Porsche some of which are spare parts and lots of labor. Do you think Evoms never blew things up? Im sure they did. My Big head and big turbos.... great for highway runs but no so for 1/4 track. Too much lag off the line. I did not tell Todd to build me a 1/4 car. Notice how the Evoms car took off the line? I could never do that with my car. Evoms had 5 years to run the cars... they learned a lot.... I had less then 5 track days. Kudos to them.
It comes down to weight and money nothing more.... If Evoms has the resources to build a car in 2 WEEKS for 1/4 and travel 5000 miles there and back to run a 9 second pass then it it seems to me that they have the resources to fix things when they break and do it all over again if they want to. It really comes down to money... someone give me $12K for weight reduction and secure my engine rebuild in case it explodes and I bet I can run a lot faster.... If I dont Ill give you back all the money. All I need it 250 lbs less and 1.7 bars of boost thats it.
BTW, Im not trying to be a smart *** just saying what it takes in my case. Im sure others like yourself can do the same if your willing to run your car this hard. I guess a good indicator of trap and ET will be when Joe runs his car...
Hes running saem tires... a little heavier as of now... but probably a little more then 1.5 bars of boost. Also, Great track, good altitute, good temps, etc. all plays a big roll. Im sure he is going to wait till it cools down.

Craig :
"However, you admittedly did not remove as much weight as EVOMS. Don't blame "lack of resources" for this."

Answer: I need money to do the rest... there is nothing left to take out besides AC, powersteering, ABS, or going with very expensive lightweight brakes and body panels. Just for comparison.... Im at 3150lbs no driver as of last week..... Evoms stated they were about 3000 with driver... so imagine what else they could have taken out to save about 350 lbs. I wish I was at 3000 lbs but Im not. again Kudos to them.... unfortunatley I need to drive this car daily since its the only P car I have. I refuse to strip it further. At this level evey 100 lbs counts. SO yes I did refuse to strip it more and it has nothing to do with my lack of resouces but rather more of the fact that I do not want to make this a dedicated track car without AC, powersteering, ABS, etc. with no power windows and with a 8 point roll cage. LOL

I have no regrets nor anger towards anyone... this is not Evoms vs. Protomotive... I believe others make it so in the court of public opinion. My car is not a dedicated drag car and never will be. Like KPG said to me once... " so u will run a 9.5 after beating up ur car some more and maybe hurting it and they will just come back and run a low 9..." so true so true... guys, I am not competing against Evoms. IF I blow my heads who do I turn to to fix them? Who will pay for it? I am not a tuner nor a mechanic. IF I blow the motor then everyone will say that Protomotive builds bad motors. It will be all over the net that markski's motor blew. I loose either way. At the end of the day I'm stuck with the bill and not a Tuner that may be able to write it off. I borrowed my friend's trailer and took my sister's SUV just to get my car to Tulsa. I paid $800 for the track the first time to only run once. WOW that is one expensive 10 second run.
Hope I didnt offend anyone... just trying to clear some things up. I don't expect everyone to agree with me... that is understandable. I have upmost respect for Evoms and you Craig. Just that Craig made it sound like I spent all this time and all this money to run onlya 9.91 whereas Evoms spent far less time and far less money running 9.67. Like I said before, if it was that easy and that cheap they would have done it long time ago.
Sincerely,
Mark

VRAlexander

The whole family is here....now lets go have a shoot-out at Las Vegas Motor Speedway on Friday night (pointless) and then its my treat for bottle service at TRYST (more fun)!! Come on guys...lets cut this $hit out.....I know both Todd's and they both build amazing Porsche's....I think this is BS...lets stop the chasing and find some twin turbo vipers to race!!

Fact: the posts in this thread (including EVOMS) are made by the fastest twin turbo 996 owners in the country (and one slow *** GT2 j/k)...let's cut the $hit and talk about the next step: How do we get this car into the 8's ????


BTW. It's good to see you guys on here!