Ceramic Brakes bad or good??
11-25-2002, 03:17 AM
#1
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Ceramic Brakes bad or good??
I ordered the Brakes on my TT and now I am seeing posts that they are not worth the money and that they fade, or burn up, or what ever they do.
I can still change my order, my question is should I?
I am getting the 911 NOT a GT2 and with the options it comes out to be only a $20k difference, (like the TT for other reasons over the GT2) but am I better off going to bigger aftermarket brembos then the Ceramic brakes.
I do track, (no autox's to much wear on the car) have done about 100 hrs of track time in the last year or so (10 schools two day schools, 5 hrs each day) in my e46 M3, and the 911 will be replacing the M3. I have heard nothing but good things regarding the PCCB brakes, but wnat to now know first hand.
Are they worth $8k?
This has been the most difficult car to buy, ever <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
I can still change my order, my question is should I?
I am getting the 911 NOT a GT2 and with the options it comes out to be only a $20k difference, (like the TT for other reasons over the GT2) but am I better off going to bigger aftermarket brembos then the Ceramic brakes.
I do track, (no autox's to much wear on the car) have done about 100 hrs of track time in the last year or so (10 schools two day schools, 5 hrs each day) in my e46 M3, and the 911 will be replacing the M3. I have heard nothing but good things regarding the PCCB brakes, but wnat to now know first hand.
Are they worth $8k?
This has been the most difficult car to buy, ever <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
11-25-2002, 12:46 PM
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Fixed wing,
It seems to me people are having very different experiences with the brakes. I'm not sure if you have a GT2 or a TT you've modified, I can't remember off the top of my head, but I've talked to enough people that it seems to me either the pccb work GREAT and NEVER FADE OR OVER-HEAT, or they work TERRIBLY and OVER-HEAT.
I find the dispairty of experience interesting. I wonder if there was a quality control problem, or design flaw...etc. The reports I've gotten come from people who've tracked GT2s for 1000's of Kilometers, and from those who've had them less than a week.
There seems to be no rhyme or reason. Thoughts?
Dean
PS -- 2500K miles on my car, brakes ok. Haven't tracked yet.
It seems to me people are having very different experiences with the brakes. I'm not sure if you have a GT2 or a TT you've modified, I can't remember off the top of my head, but I've talked to enough people that it seems to me either the pccb work GREAT and NEVER FADE OR OVER-HEAT, or they work TERRIBLY and OVER-HEAT.
I find the dispairty of experience interesting. I wonder if there was a quality control problem, or design flaw...etc. The reports I've gotten come from people who've tracked GT2s for 1000's of Kilometers, and from those who've had them less than a week.
There seems to be no rhyme or reason. Thoughts?
Dean
PS -- 2500K miles on my car, brakes ok. Haven't tracked yet.
11-25-2002, 01:15 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
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I do think it depends an awful lot on the driver. One can be very quick without being particularly hard on the brakes. Strangely enough, I think I'm not being that hard on the brakes.
Interestingly, the GT2 I saw on Saturday had cracks on one of the rear rotors. Big cracks. I have not seen this before. And there is no reason why the rear rotors should crack as they don't get particularly hot. So I suspect that there is a quality control issue.
But I cannot point to cracks or anthing like that on my rotors. They simply seem to be suffering from the heat. The situation is even worse for the pads.
Actually, the worst I've seen for overheating was on the roads in Greece and Romania. Even a series of high-speed stops can do it (Belgians love to pull out in front of you when they're doing 120 and you are doing 250 ... repeat this a few times and you can overheat your brakes very quickly).
So I can't really explain it either other than it might in part be quality control but I think it is mostly down to the user.
You know, there are people in this world who can take a car and turn it into a box of bits within just a few miles and without ever hitting anything. These people are exceptional people. There is a story about Mario Andretti doing that to a car once and they never being able to get the car aligned again. Sabine, the BMW Ringtaxi driver is famous for going through a set of tyres in 10 laps (220 km). There are just some people who can take a car so close to the edge that it is well outside of whatever the factory thought possible (no, I'm not one of these people).
Oh, my system is a retrofit by Porsche to the Turbo but it is identical to what you have on the GT2. 54,000 km on the car with about 30,000 km on the PCCB's.
S.
Interestingly, the GT2 I saw on Saturday had cracks on one of the rear rotors. Big cracks. I have not seen this before. And there is no reason why the rear rotors should crack as they don't get particularly hot. So I suspect that there is a quality control issue.
But I cannot point to cracks or anthing like that on my rotors. They simply seem to be suffering from the heat. The situation is even worse for the pads.
Actually, the worst I've seen for overheating was on the roads in Greece and Romania. Even a series of high-speed stops can do it (Belgians love to pull out in front of you when they're doing 120 and you are doing 250 ... repeat this a few times and you can overheat your brakes very quickly).
So I can't really explain it either other than it might in part be quality control but I think it is mostly down to the user.
You know, there are people in this world who can take a car and turn it into a box of bits within just a few miles and without ever hitting anything. These people are exceptional people. There is a story about Mario Andretti doing that to a car once and they never being able to get the car aligned again. Sabine, the BMW Ringtaxi driver is famous for going through a set of tyres in 10 laps (220 km). There are just some people who can take a car so close to the edge that it is well outside of whatever the factory thought possible (no, I'm not one of these people).
Oh, my system is a retrofit by Porsche to the Turbo but it is identical to what you have on the GT2. 54,000 km on the car with about 30,000 km on the PCCB's.
S.
11-25-2002, 01:25 PM
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FixedWing:
I believe Lonman had similar problems to yours too... something about the rotors cracking or shattering under intense conditions. I believe he has since replaced his PCCB with the GT3R 380mm system.
I believe Lonman had similar problems to yours too... something about the rotors cracking or shattering under intense conditions. I believe he has since replaced his PCCB with the GT3R 380mm system.
11-25-2002, 02:09 PM
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i would go for the ceramic brakes; when i had 996 turbos they were having production problems and i couldnt get them; i have them now on my gt2 and they:
1] are great brakes. i've had rotor twist [loss of trueness] from overheating because i use alot of downhill hard braking and i don't expect that with the ceramic.
2] the 11 # per corner less unsprung weight is HUGE and will be HUGE in your turbo, vastly improving your handling if you pound the corners.
and
3] if there's a problem pcna will replace them.
1] are great brakes. i've had rotor twist [loss of trueness] from overheating because i use alot of downhill hard braking and i don't expect that with the ceramic.
2] the 11 # per corner less unsprung weight is HUGE and will be HUGE in your turbo, vastly improving your handling if you pound the corners.
and
3] if there's a problem pcna will replace them.
11-25-2002, 02:10 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
kosmos, I have upgraded to the GT2 6 piston monobloc calipers with steel rotors due to the problems with the ceramic rotors, I can say this is viable alternative. Very happy with the set up. I believe Brembo is working on new floating rotors for this set up. Eventually they will have the problems worked out with the ceramic rotors. Another option is the new Brembo 8 piston 380mm floating rotors, or the P-Motorsport set up.
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11-25-2002, 04:02 PM
#8
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[quote]Originally posted by watt:
<strong>
[I]f there's a problem [Porsche] will replace them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't want to talk about it on-list but this is just not true.
I do agree with you on the unsprung weight. I was told not to expect it to be noticable. In fact, it is very noticable. Unfortuantely, this doesn't make a lot of difference with the GT2 as they use solid spoke wheels instead of hollow spoke wheels. The difference in weight of the wheels eats up most of the savings.
S.
<strong>
[I]f there's a problem [Porsche] will replace them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't want to talk about it on-list but this is just not true.
I do agree with you on the unsprung weight. I was told not to expect it to be noticable. In fact, it is very noticable. Unfortuantely, this doesn't make a lot of difference with the GT2 as they use solid spoke wheels instead of hollow spoke wheels. The difference in weight of the wheels eats up most of the savings.
S.
11-26-2002, 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by watt:
[I]f there's a problem [Porsche] will replace them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't want to talk about it on-list but this is just not true." Fixedwing
Fixed Wingage: it may not be true for you, but they've alwasy come through for me: rotors, bonnets, repaints, valences, tyres, etc. Could it be they discriminate?
[I]f there's a problem [Porsche] will replace them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't want to talk about it on-list but this is just not true." Fixedwing
Fixed Wingage: it may not be true for you, but they've alwasy come through for me: rotors, bonnets, repaints, valences, tyres, etc. Could it be they discriminate?
11-27-2002, 05:53 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by watt:
<strong>Fixed Wingage: it may not be true for you, but they've alwasy come through for me: rotors, bonnets, repaints, valences, tyres, etc. Could it be they discriminate?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The difference is USA vs. Europe. In the USA you have so much more leverage. Walk softly and carry a big stick.
S.
<strong>Fixed Wingage: it may not be true for you, but they've alwasy come through for me: rotors, bonnets, repaints, valences, tyres, etc. Could it be they discriminate?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The difference is USA vs. Europe. In the USA you have so much more leverage. Walk softly and carry a big stick.
S.
11-27-2002, 11:39 AM
#12
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brakes do not have warranty BUT if your Dealer is nice (or you are nice to him) he can do this for you and you get another new set.
Konstantin
PS the PCCB works great. In case the instalation was not right then you will ahve the problems you described. In case of a product mistake the dealer MUST replace them. If you do not have a damaged caliper rotor or what ever then you will be happy with them for a long time.
PS2 I do not know if they are worth the $8000. In term of braking power not. the steel rotor brakes fine too but they "may" overheat more than the PCCB. The solution is better cooling NOT bigger brakes
Konstantin
PS the PCCB works great. In case the instalation was not right then you will ahve the problems you described. In case of a product mistake the dealer MUST replace them. If you do not have a damaged caliper rotor or what ever then you will be happy with them for a long time.
PS2 I do not know if they are worth the $8000. In term of braking power not. the steel rotor brakes fine too but they "may" overheat more than the PCCB. The solution is better cooling NOT bigger brakes
