Hamann7

Guys,

I am pretty much dead set on getting a 996 TT towards the end of the year or 1st quarter '03. I am considering doing the Ruf R Turbo conversion, which costs about $18K or so...

However, when I went over to By Design, and also talked to other TT owners, they said that the R Turbo is too much money for the power you get. By Design recommended that I go with FVD ECU, Cargraphic exhaust, upgraded K24 turbos with GT2 or FVD intercoolers and some custom tuning which would give an output of about 550hp+. Now I know that several people in LA have gone this route.

When I was reading the other thread though, someone (I forget who) was saying that the Ruf R Turbo is formidable not because of hp, but TORQUE. It seems to be torquier than most of the other upgraded Turbos out there.

Can anyone provide some insight on this? Price wise, the upgrades suggested by By Design seem to come out similar in price to the R Turbo conversion. By Design is a great place though, very knowledgable and friendly, even if I were to do the Ruf, I would definitely go there to do other upgrades! But this issue has been boggling my mind for days...

SpectraG

I think its the camshaft they use on the turbo R, that's where the secret is..
the peak torque and hp all come quite early compared to other upgrade.. though the top HP is not as high as others, but by the time they get to high revs where the power comes on, the ruf will be in front and too late for those to catch on...
However, i will not do that upgrade, too costly, and warranty is an issue, the technicians are from europe and there are only two authorized dearler in north america, while Ruf gives one year warranty on his products, if something happens, will they fly the technicians over, or you will be paying for it??

asgar

Its not in the camshafts, its the whole package with superb R&D and components that all compliment the end result,
with a zero warranty rate todate, of which we are very proud of, as this and reflects in the quality of our products and our commitment,
should there be a warranty issue, unlike other manufactures, we will at our cost repair the problem at your location....
you get what you pay for...the results are unbeatable.
BTW we are the only authorized Ruf Agent.
cheers

Asgar
<a href="http://www.weissach.com" target="_blank">www.weissach.com</a>

Bill S.

I agree with Asgar. The Ruf engineering is superb. In my opinion, their knowledge of the ECU and their relationship with Bosch is second to none. It's performance, not HP or TQ that really matters. Compare 0-60, 0-100, 0-150 and 1/4-mile times. I think you'll find that the Ruf with "only" 520 HP is faster than cars rated at 600 HP or more.

ag

Having VERY nearly done the Ruf conversion on my 996TT (sorry Asgar!), I agree that based on all available info, Ruf does a superb job. I do think that it may run a bit more than the amount you quote. While I also agree that the the guys at ByDesign are good guys and certainly big time P-car enthuseists(sp?), I think that even they would admit that they have a vested interest in directing business their own way. For what its worth, when viewing the whole package(performance, reliabilty, longevity etc.) I would have to be biased in favor of Ruf. Would also like to see how the ByDesign 550hp car did vs. the 520hp Ruf in both straight line and road course situations. Asgar, if you are reading this, how does Ruf make accomodation for the lousy 91 octane gas in Cali?

HBdirtbag

cjv, when you gettin your beast to the track?

Hamann7

Asgar,

So how much is the R Turbo engine conversion? According to my friends who inquired about the conversion in the U.S., for a Ruf technician to come onsite to Cali and perform the work, it is around $18K I'm told.

Turby

I have no personal experiance with modding a 996TT, or with any RUF products, but baised on what I have read about RUF I agree about all that is said above, but you guys left something out. Assuming you are not going to keep the car forever, the RUF car would have a significantly higher resale value compaired to the others. On the By-Design note, I have done some buisness with them in the past and the coustmer service I got from Michael Monsuri should be the standard for how ALL buisness is conducted. They are a very knowledgable, and reputable company that will be sure to get my buisness again.

HBdirtbag

[quote]Originally posted by cjv:
<strong>soon2be993tt,

When will I get to take this one to the track? Good question. The car has been at S Car Go Racing since August 23rd. Hopefully it will be done by the end of next week. The GT3R suspension (front/rear) has just been completed today. We are now waiting on the new turbo's. My KKK K-24's ran out of air at just over 630 hp. I might add S Car Go Racing's prototype intake accomplished this with 91 octane and only 1.1 bar boost. That is all the boost the turbo's could muster with the new S Car Go intakes. S Car Go Racing is building new turbo's. The intake on their turbo's is 25% larger in diameter than the K-24's. They claim these turbo's will flow 800 hp without sacrificing the lower end drivability. I sure hope they are right. Turbo's are due to be complete this coming Monday. Hope for a dyno run by the end of next week.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>


how long has the car been non running? Don't you hate how these projects take more time then you'd wish. Then once you are done you decide you want more. The 55 suburban i built took 6 years and is now going under more construction. I bought it at 14 hoping to have it done at 16, now i'm 21 driven it a dozen times and it's back in the shop going under a full suspension switch out. HOpefully only a little bit longer

TB993tt

Hamann7
The package you describe from By Design sounds like one of the stages developed by RS Tuning - their stage 3 package I beleive giving ECU, Turbos and Exhaust and BMC filter to give you 540ps. A lot of the German Tuners market RS's packages indeed Cargraphic claim in their literature that they developed their exhaust on RS's dyno and the pictures in their catalogue clearly show RS logos on the ECUs.
Compared to Ruf who are Meisters of marketing, RS are not interested in marketing, they let the tuners FVD,Cargraphic etc do it for them. An RS developed package will have a thoroughly dyno developed power/torque curve (usually slightly more aggressive than Ruf). Remember RS -Reinhold Schmirler was Ruf's chief mechanic.

TB993tt

cjv
One of the points I am making is that you don't have to take your car to Germany for the RS kits, they are marketed by Cargraphic (for certain) and FVD (not certain, but the power curves in their catalogue look suspiciously similar to the RS power curves)- As far as warranty and service, presumably the installing company is the one who should offer the warranty. Straight off RS's web site, their Kit 3 gives 542ps and 755NM which equates to 535hp and 555lb/ft, even their Kit 2 gives 501hp and 544lb/ft with stock turbos. I'm not sure you are making a point about more torque (in lb/ft) than hp, but virtually all of RS's packages do this, my own eg 515hp and 557lb/ft - this is the way RS likes to map the motronic, to give big boost at peak torque -this is what makes their cars so fast with apparently small (relatively) hp.
I agree generally with what you say about the NA Ruf dealer they sound like they give a good experience, however one of the beauty's of the 996tt is that these bolt on RS kits are pretty simple (compared with 993tt tuning) without the need for special head sealing, oil coolers, clutches etc. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Bill S.

As a Ruf owner, I have found their customer service to be exceptional. When I thought I had a bad turbo (it turned out to be a bad oil filter valve) they asked me to ship it to them so they can re-build it for free. They have a dedicated customer service and warranty staff in Germany.

I think it's also very important to forget HP and TQ and use acceleration numbers. In my 18 years of modifying Porsche turbos, I can't stress this enough. There are too many ways to measure and report HP and TQ. Also, HP/TQ dynamics, gearing, lag, weight, aerodynamics, traction and other items contribute greatly to acceleration. For example, some people frown on the Ruf Turbo R for being "only" 490 HP. However, it hits 150 MPH from a soft start with easy shifts in 17 seconds (Car & Driver measured 19.7 seconds for the 996 GT2 with their "friendly" starts and shifts). 911 & Porsche World found this curious and measured the HP and TQ on the Ruf as the factory would (to the best of my knowledge). They got 506 HP @ 5000 RPM and 535 lb/ft @ 4500. The point? You can't use the manufacturer's published HP and TQ for a proper comparison.

TB993tt

Bill
I agree to an extent about looking at "quoted" hp and torque (although I would say that Ruf and RS Tuning use the same sort of engine dyno which give reliable figures similar to the factory methods of calculating hp) because it is the shape of the torque curve which will give you your acceleration not just the peak power figure. In those 911 & Porsche World figures (which were actually taken from Ruf's own engine dyno I believe) 535lb/ft @ 4500 rpm means at 4500rpm the engine is giving 458hp . The area under the power curve can be greater than a 600hp car. For example the TTP 600ps 993tt weighing 1558kg did 0-200kph in 12 seconds (Sport Auto). TTP used to have their power diagram on their web site, it shows 306ps@4000rpm, 374@4250, 408@4500, 442@4750, 458@5000, 489@5250, 530@5000 -maybe it has 600ps maybe not but a Ruf turbo R will match or beat that 12second figure with a peak power between 490-540ps but with a fatter torque curve.

Bill S.

tb993tt,

Your right on! Actually, they measured 466 BHP @ 4500 RPM (pretty impressive for a 3.6 turbo car without variable valve timing, dual cams or 4 valves). I didn't know they may have used the Ruf test setup.

I couldn't agree more about the shape of the TQ curve. Too bad the curves don't indicate turbo lag. I had a single turbo car (4 speed) which generated very high numbers on the dyno (much higher than we are talking about here) but accelerated about the same as the Turbo R to 150 MPH (it was very slow below 60 MPH!).

ELL996tt

For us lucky enough to live in Europe Ruf has another two options available. Stage 2 545hp and a stage 3 called Nardo engine with 580hp. I will be going to Munich next week to see Mr.Ruf and decide what I will do. Ruf's reputation is solid and may justify the premium he commands. I had an oppurtunity to ride in an RS 542hp conversion the vehicle was very strong. I currently have a stage one upgade from TTP. He also has a 600hp converion out and will be test vehicle driving that car as well. Claims 0-200 in 10.5 sec His 520hp car was tested among others in Sport_Auto Jan-2001 0-200 11.51 second only to Sportec's 540hp 11.38sec. Finally i will visit 9ff a company in northen Germany They have a 587hp 780nm car 0-200 10.8 tested by Option Auto a French mag.October 2002. The owner used to work for Brabus 7 years and Ruf a couple. web cites
ruf.de, t-t-p.de,sportec.ch,rs-tuning.de,9ff.de.
Will post pics after my trip is completed