Second GT2 crash at Nürburgring
03-31-2003, 09:42 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
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Ok, here is my personal take on this.
First, I think we have to discount the surprise factor that Dean refers to. The driver was an amateur but hardly inexperienced at the Nürburgring. He had done many laps there in both a GT3 and this GT2. He was a regular. So he knew the layout of the track and wasn’t getting in over his head without realising it.
The double right-hander following is all important as it leads onto a long straight which sees some of the highest speeds on the track. It might not look it but it is also a very fast corner. Some of the slowest cars will take it without any braking at all.
But that is not at all true for the fast cars. For them they must brake. And the hump on the braking is really trouble. I’m still experimenting with the braking here to see what I can do.
Basically, a fast car must brake at least a little before the hump. If you try to do it all after then the car is not settled enough to set up for the corner. There are two ways to do it, either do all of your braking before the hump or split the braking and do some before and some after. Doing all of your braking before is a lot safer as the car is much more settled for the corner. (I’m also experimenting a bit with using the down force at the beginning of the hump for doing a lot of braking in a short period but I haven’t figured that out yet.)
So the problem is that all of this is very unsettling. When you brake before the hump you get weight transfer to the front. Then you get off the brakes for the hump so it transfers back. Then you hump. Then if you split the braking you get back on the brakes again and the weight transfers forward once more. Then you’ve got to get off the brakes to settle the car into the corner (and it is fast so you can’t just toss it into the corner the way you might on a slow corner).
Lot’s of opportunity to unsettle the back. And I guess that is probably what happened. I would guess from the way he crashed going forward and to the right that probably he got the back sliding and then had it hook up again and fling him to the right. He never would have had time to react once that happened as the Armco is so close and the speeds so high.
Pilot error for sure but it also probably has something to do with the design of the car.
The scariest thing I see is that he almost went off the track. You can see that he only just caught the top of the Armco. Had he gone off then it very possibly could have been a fatal accident.
For Dark: It was a shirtsleeve day at the Ring on the 9th. Tyre temps would not have been an issue. In fact, I was on winter tyres and they were overheating.
All of the Ring is like this with humps and such trying to unsettle you and send you into the weeds. And a lot of it is actually very fast even if it doesn’t look it at first. Rewarding and deadly territory for a GT2.
Stephen
First, I think we have to discount the surprise factor that Dean refers to. The driver was an amateur but hardly inexperienced at the Nürburgring. He had done many laps there in both a GT3 and this GT2. He was a regular. So he knew the layout of the track and wasn’t getting in over his head without realising it.
The double right-hander following is all important as it leads onto a long straight which sees some of the highest speeds on the track. It might not look it but it is also a very fast corner. Some of the slowest cars will take it without any braking at all.
But that is not at all true for the fast cars. For them they must brake. And the hump on the braking is really trouble. I’m still experimenting with the braking here to see what I can do.
Basically, a fast car must brake at least a little before the hump. If you try to do it all after then the car is not settled enough to set up for the corner. There are two ways to do it, either do all of your braking before the hump or split the braking and do some before and some after. Doing all of your braking before is a lot safer as the car is much more settled for the corner. (I’m also experimenting a bit with using the down force at the beginning of the hump for doing a lot of braking in a short period but I haven’t figured that out yet.)
So the problem is that all of this is very unsettling. When you brake before the hump you get weight transfer to the front. Then you get off the brakes for the hump so it transfers back. Then you hump. Then if you split the braking you get back on the brakes again and the weight transfers forward once more. Then you’ve got to get off the brakes to settle the car into the corner (and it is fast so you can’t just toss it into the corner the way you might on a slow corner).
Lot’s of opportunity to unsettle the back. And I guess that is probably what happened. I would guess from the way he crashed going forward and to the right that probably he got the back sliding and then had it hook up again and fling him to the right. He never would have had time to react once that happened as the Armco is so close and the speeds so high.
Pilot error for sure but it also probably has something to do with the design of the car.
The scariest thing I see is that he almost went off the track. You can see that he only just caught the top of the Armco. Had he gone off then it very possibly could have been a fatal accident.
For Dark: It was a shirtsleeve day at the Ring on the 9th. Tyre temps would not have been an issue. In fact, I was on winter tyres and they were overheating.
All of the Ring is like this with humps and such trying to unsettle you and send you into the weeds. And a lot of it is actually very fast even if it doesn’t look it at first. Rewarding and deadly territory for a GT2.
Stephen
03-31-2003, 10:18 PM
#17
Where's the hump exactly? I can't tell in the video because it goes slow motion as the car comes up to the crash site. I'm assuming it's right as you crest the hill or possibly afterwards. On the left hand side in the video there is a stack of tires, then an opening in the guardrail and then a number 13 or 18. Which would you say the hump is closest to?
03-31-2003, 10:22 PM
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Man, it must be great to even have an opportunity to drive on the Ring, to drive it often enough to actually try to go fast on it must be awesome. Forgive me if this has been asked before but are there similar amounts of crashes with the GT3? Does auto insurance in Germany cover if you have such an accident?
04-01-2003, 12:02 AM
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I don't think there was any hook slide involved, based upon the tire tracks, if they belong to the GT2. The skid marks head straight for the barrier suggesting over braking and loss of steering input (speed induced oversteer?)
It seems to me that he came over the hump at high speed, for some reason (got air and was off line?) panicked, got on the brakes too hard and slid into the barrier. What came after (on the LHS) was a result of the colllision.
I wonder would it have been possible to save it, if he got off the brakes.
Just my theory, and no reflection on his abilities, in trying to understand it. Hope he's OK!
It seems to me that he came over the hump at high speed, for some reason (got air and was off line?) panicked, got on the brakes too hard and slid into the barrier. What came after (on the LHS) was a result of the colllision.
I wonder would it have been possible to save it, if he got off the brakes.
Just my theory, and no reflection on his abilities, in trying to understand it. Hope he's OK!
04-01-2003, 12:28 AM
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Burning Brakes
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ZAMIRZ:
<strong>Where's the hump exactly?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It is at about 0:36 on the video. The first flagman is standing on top of it. Basically, it is the rise which is blocking the view of the corner ahead.
The car that is videoing doesn't actually get a good entrance to the straight and doesn't appear to be that fast. A fast car will be going much quicker than this. A GT3 is going to hit about 220 km/h before braking. The hump wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't for the speed.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by dark night:
<strong>are there similar amounts of crashes with the GT3? Does auto insurance in Germany cover if you have such an accident? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">No, the record for the GT3 is much better. This is one of the reasons we are asking all of the questions about why the situation for the GT2 is so much worse.
During the public periods the Ring is considered a road and liability insurance applies. There are a few polices with exclusions but unless this is the case, collision damage would also be covered. In all likelihood, that GT2 was insured.
Stephen
<strong>Where's the hump exactly?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It is at about 0:36 on the video. The first flagman is standing on top of it. Basically, it is the rise which is blocking the view of the corner ahead.
The car that is videoing doesn't actually get a good entrance to the straight and doesn't appear to be that fast. A fast car will be going much quicker than this. A GT3 is going to hit about 220 km/h before braking. The hump wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't for the speed.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by dark night:
<strong>are there similar amounts of crashes with the GT3? Does auto insurance in Germany cover if you have such an accident? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">No, the record for the GT3 is much better. This is one of the reasons we are asking all of the questions about why the situation for the GT2 is so much worse.
During the public periods the Ring is considered a road and liability insurance applies. There are a few polices with exclusions but unless this is the case, collision damage would also be covered. In all likelihood, that GT2 was insured.
Stephen
04-01-2003, 12:38 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Luke:
<strong>i would agree with pete on that one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Why am I not surprised that you would agree with the uninformed juvenile ramblings of your fellow 951er with the huge envy chip on his shoulder?
<strong>i would agree with pete on that one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Why am I not surprised that you would agree with the uninformed juvenile ramblings of your fellow 951er with the huge envy chip on his shoulder?
04-01-2003, 01:47 PM
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Fixed Wing --
About yours/others GT2 vs GT3 issues. I noticed a few things about the GT2 driving after a layoff where I was in a normally aspirated high power car...
Obviously, the turbos can create all sorts of front/back issues with regards to weight and mometum. But I was out for a drive the other night after reading something about how much better for a short passing swerve it is to settle the suspension just enough and not too much (i'd been doing too much) in the other direction before your swerve... (I digress)...
What I noticed was the following -- And I'm not skilled enough to diagnose it -- There is something about the suspension that makes me think at high speed if you are completely off the throttle the car is not at all happy. More so than a 996TT or a normally aspirated car.
Now before everyone jumps down my throat. Of course any time you are at speed with no throttle a 911 isn't happy unless it is going dead straight, and even then...., but what I am saying is it almost feels like in order to handle the kind of power/weight ratio that the GT2 can produce, the suspension had to be dialed in such a way that it thrives under perfect driving and really really doesn't at anything less. Does that make sense? In other words, if you consider the car is set-up to deal with a wide range of possible force imputs, and that the GT2 has the widest envelope of possible imputs due to power/weight ratio, that where the car errs is on the side of ability to handle great driving, and perhaps what no one realized is that the drop-off in the other direction was more dramatic then people would like. Does that make sense? I guess what I mean is if you think of a car has having a sweet-spot of handling, maybe the GT2's sweet-spot is smaller than people think. I know for sure it is a very different car over 100 MPH then it is under. Again, a bigger difference than other P-Cars.
This is all me sitting here guessing, throwing stuff out...etc. I think that properly setting up this car is crucial -- And I don't know how many people in the world truly understand the car well enough to tune it to one's driving...
This car very may well end up with the infamous reputation I had so vocieferousy said it didn't deserve after all.
Still a blast to drive though!
About yours/others GT2 vs GT3 issues. I noticed a few things about the GT2 driving after a layoff where I was in a normally aspirated high power car...
Obviously, the turbos can create all sorts of front/back issues with regards to weight and mometum. But I was out for a drive the other night after reading something about how much better for a short passing swerve it is to settle the suspension just enough and not too much (i'd been doing too much) in the other direction before your swerve... (I digress)...
What I noticed was the following -- And I'm not skilled enough to diagnose it -- There is something about the suspension that makes me think at high speed if you are completely off the throttle the car is not at all happy. More so than a 996TT or a normally aspirated car.
Now before everyone jumps down my throat. Of course any time you are at speed with no throttle a 911 isn't happy unless it is going dead straight, and even then...., but what I am saying is it almost feels like in order to handle the kind of power/weight ratio that the GT2 can produce, the suspension had to be dialed in such a way that it thrives under perfect driving and really really doesn't at anything less. Does that make sense? In other words, if you consider the car is set-up to deal with a wide range of possible force imputs, and that the GT2 has the widest envelope of possible imputs due to power/weight ratio, that where the car errs is on the side of ability to handle great driving, and perhaps what no one realized is that the drop-off in the other direction was more dramatic then people would like. Does that make sense? I guess what I mean is if you think of a car has having a sweet-spot of handling, maybe the GT2's sweet-spot is smaller than people think. I know for sure it is a very different car over 100 MPH then it is under. Again, a bigger difference than other P-Cars.
This is all me sitting here guessing, throwing stuff out...etc. I think that properly setting up this car is crucial -- And I don't know how many people in the world truly understand the car well enough to tune it to one's driving...
This car very may well end up with the infamous reputation I had so vocieferousy said it didn't deserve after all.
Still a blast to drive though!
04-01-2003, 02:12 PM
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I read somewhere that because of the massive acceleration that the GT2 provides without PSM, ASR, ABD, AWD, etc., the engineers had set up the GT2 suspension for massive understeering to make it a safer experience. Therefore, it is much harder to enter a slow corner smoothly.
Perhaps this has something to do with it? Because it goes from massive understeer to oversteer too quickly without much transition in between?
Apparently, Walter Rohrl prefers the GT3 to the GT2. He seemed to say that the lower lap times of the GT2 were more a result of the sheer power, not handling.
Most race car drivers and race teams I have talked to seem to think that the GT3 is a much better car for the Ring and most racetracks. This is mainly due to its linear throttle response, lighter weight, and much sharper handling... overall the GT3 is described as being more agile. This is what drove my decision towards one.
Johan from the M5 board told me that according to his sources, Rohrl recently ran a 7:52 with a revised GT3 (381hp). So it's splitting the difference between the 360hp version and the GT2. Put 30 more horse in it or lighten weight like a Cup car and you will have a GT2 killer on the Ring.
The GT2 still looks better though! And that sheer acceleration in a straight line is indeed breathtaking. Too bad so many of them are crashing... Perhaps they should swap out the suspension for some GT3R parts like cjv did.
Perhaps this has something to do with it? Because it goes from massive understeer to oversteer too quickly without much transition in between?
Apparently, Walter Rohrl prefers the GT3 to the GT2. He seemed to say that the lower lap times of the GT2 were more a result of the sheer power, not handling.
Most race car drivers and race teams I have talked to seem to think that the GT3 is a much better car for the Ring and most racetracks. This is mainly due to its linear throttle response, lighter weight, and much sharper handling... overall the GT3 is described as being more agile. This is what drove my decision towards one.
Johan from the M5 board told me that according to his sources, Rohrl recently ran a 7:52 with a revised GT3 (381hp). So it's splitting the difference between the 360hp version and the GT2. Put 30 more horse in it or lighten weight like a Cup car and you will have a GT2 killer on the Ring.
The GT2 still looks better though! And that sheer acceleration in a straight line is indeed breathtaking. Too bad so many of them are crashing... Perhaps they should swap out the suspension for some GT3R parts like cjv did.
04-01-2003, 02:21 PM
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Deanger,
Not sure that I understood everything you said but I think your point is that the GT2 is not a forgiving car. At least not when compared to a 996TT with PSM and AWD.
A stiffer car will react quicker and requires quicker inpts to control it. On the upside it will do exactly what you ask of it, just don't ask for too much! If you are an experienced track driver this can be very rewarding, but if you mess up, you are done. You must be able to learn to correct a small mistake before it becomes a big issue. I notice that while instructing I can tell a couple moments before a newer student can, that we need to make an adjustment. This just comes from experience.
I don't think the GT2 is some uncontrollable beast, but do think it deserves/commands a healthy dose of respect.
Not sure that I understood everything you said but I think your point is that the GT2 is not a forgiving car. At least not when compared to a 996TT with PSM and AWD.
A stiffer car will react quicker and requires quicker inpts to control it. On the upside it will do exactly what you ask of it, just don't ask for too much! If you are an experienced track driver this can be very rewarding, but if you mess up, you are done. You must be able to learn to correct a small mistake before it becomes a big issue. I notice that while instructing I can tell a couple moments before a newer student can, that we need to make an adjustment. This just comes from experience.
I don't think the GT2 is some uncontrollable beast, but do think it deserves/commands a healthy dose of respect.
04-01-2003, 11:09 PM
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Hamann 7
My comment was not aimed at you, or anyone in particular.
I know the GT2 to be the best handling car I've ever driven, including the TT. Some will argue with that but my emphasis is on driven. The TT is loaded with technology which in my opinion dilutes the driving experience. Don't get me wrong the TT is fantastic, but not to my preference.
I made the comment to counteract the readiness of some to attribute characteristics to a car about which they know very little but perceive a lot.
If my interpretation of what happened on the ring is correct, then I suspect that it would have happened to any RWD Porsche under the same conditions. Because it's a GT2 it makes news. But then again that's speculation too, alas, we'll never know
My comment was not aimed at you, or anyone in particular.
I know the GT2 to be the best handling car I've ever driven, including the TT. Some will argue with that but my emphasis is on driven. The TT is loaded with technology which in my opinion dilutes the driving experience. Don't get me wrong the TT is fantastic, but not to my preference.
I made the comment to counteract the readiness of some to attribute characteristics to a car about which they know very little but perceive a lot.
If my interpretation of what happened on the ring is correct, then I suspect that it would have happened to any RWD Porsche under the same conditions. Because it's a GT2 it makes news. But then again that's speculation too, alas, we'll never know
04-02-2003, 02:18 AM
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Colm,
I agree with you, the GT2 does handle quite brilliantly. Though I have not driven one to date, I have ridden in Deanger's car and it was a very exciting ride to say the least.
However, as FixedWing points out, the GT3, which is also RWD, has a far lower crash rate on the 'Ring. I think this has something to do with the Turbo boost (although lag is very subtle) upsetting the balance of the car when taking the car to high speeds around a corner. However, it may also be that the way the suspension is setup has a lot to do with it.
I will ask some 'experts' why this is so, but many race teams have pointed out that the GT3 is a much more efficient tool for most tracks and windy canyon roads-- they characterize the car as being more "agile." I will try to find out what exactly they mean by this.
I agree with you, the GT2 does handle quite brilliantly. Though I have not driven one to date, I have ridden in Deanger's car and it was a very exciting ride to say the least.
However, as FixedWing points out, the GT3, which is also RWD, has a far lower crash rate on the 'Ring. I think this has something to do with the Turbo boost (although lag is very subtle) upsetting the balance of the car when taking the car to high speeds around a corner. However, it may also be that the way the suspension is setup has a lot to do with it.
I will ask some 'experts' why this is so, but many race teams have pointed out that the GT3 is a much more efficient tool for most tracks and windy canyon roads-- they characterize the car as being more "agile." I will try to find out what exactly they mean by this.