Stage X X X X --Thats 4 X's
01-25-2003, 07:49 PM
#16
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CJV -- I spoke today with someone who had a Ruf Turbo which was RWD and produced in the range of 600hp. (And we all know how Ruf rates cars - that is a real number for sure) He said it was nearly impossible to get sideways. How did Ruf accomplish this?
A: They car has a wider foot print front and rear.
I suspect this machine is awesome. Similiar in width to a Zonda S
A: They car has a wider foot print front and rear.
I suspect this machine is awesome. Similiar in width to a Zonda S
01-26-2003, 12:25 AM
#17
I'm told that Autothority runs 93 octane gas at 1.2bar. The motor is completely rebuilt, but they use stock heads, valves and springs. The heads are ported and polished. The rpm is about 7300 max. They do use titanium con rods and custom cams that are slightly modified. Otherwise the guts of the motor are stock. On the outside they have a larger throttle body and larger air piping and a proprietary air-mass sensor on the intake side. On the exhaust side, headers, 100 cell cats and free-flow exhaust. Interestingly they are using KKK turbo - possibly K26/24 hybrids?? - and also water-to-air intercoolers?? Finally they do the standard ECU reprogramming including variocam programming. They specifically said stock injectors, no additional injectors, but extra fuel pumps to supply more fuel. I need at least 650rwhp to keep up with the 'Jones' (501 now) and have been watching your progress and learning from you. As others have expressed, I appreciate all the honest discussion and detailed info you have provided over the last year.
01-26-2003, 05:51 AM
#18
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cjv,
The Ruf R Turbo that Deanger is referring to is not based on a GT2. It is a Ruf VIN car that was built as a one off special.
It has a custom widebody from Ruf that increases the rear track to 195cm. No compact parking spaces for this sucker-- it literally is as wide as a Pagani Zonda C12S, which by the way the owner of this Ruf drove today to our little meeting.
It is no wonder that the rear tires don't break loose. The owner put on custom Fikse wheels to accomodate this setup as well. If Ruf ever made a CTR3, it would probably use this body... This car is truly a one-of-a-kind. Probably cost at least $300K to build.
I think what you are referring to is the GT2R conversion package which puts out somewhere around 590hp. Whether or not this car ended up using the same setup, I do not know.
From what I understood, this Ruf turbo had a specially built motor with the titanium conrods, and it puts out 600hp and 625 lb. ft. of torque. Knowing how fat the Ruf torque and power curve are and how well the whole package works together, this would make for one menacing machine. I would bet it could outrun the Gemballa GTR750...
The Ruf R Turbo that Deanger is referring to is not based on a GT2. It is a Ruf VIN car that was built as a one off special.
It has a custom widebody from Ruf that increases the rear track to 195cm. No compact parking spaces for this sucker-- it literally is as wide as a Pagani Zonda C12S, which by the way the owner of this Ruf drove today to our little meeting.
It is no wonder that the rear tires don't break loose. The owner put on custom Fikse wheels to accomodate this setup as well. If Ruf ever made a CTR3, it would probably use this body... This car is truly a one-of-a-kind. Probably cost at least $300K to build.
I think what you are referring to is the GT2R conversion package which puts out somewhere around 590hp. Whether or not this car ended up using the same setup, I do not know.
From what I understood, this Ruf turbo had a specially built motor with the titanium conrods, and it puts out 600hp and 625 lb. ft. of torque. Knowing how fat the Ruf torque and power curve are and how well the whole package works together, this would make for one menacing machine. I would bet it could outrun the Gemballa GTR750...
01-26-2003, 11:41 AM
#19
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Typically porting and polishing will add around 10HP. Sometimes not as much. It also depends on what cam etc. The TT head is far better flowing than the past turbo heads. Part of the reason is the fitment of four valves. Now the other thing that should be known is the more you open something up the more air it needs to move thus all the enhancements that has to be done. Obviously look at the amount of air in air out products CJV has been on the cutting edge of. One thing I would love to see is the difference in spool times. Typically bigger ports mean that that it takes more effort to move a larger mass of air to the turbos. This typically equals lag. It is a fine line to go bigger and retain drivability. Although with the raised compression the TT runs it will combat a lot of the low end lug that might be created. The other key to that is tuning. So many variables. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
CJV, High impedance injectors are out there. They are near impossible to source, but I assure you they are there. With the right programming you can loose any additional injector. Also by adding fuel pressure you really don't help matters. If the injector is 52#s it is 52#s. You can't make it bigger. You can force a higher pressure through it, but its ability to flow is still hindered. The other problem is if the pressure is raised too high you will cause the injector to stick. If you are setting the pulse width and over drive the injector you will cause it to fail as well. <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
CJV, High impedance injectors are out there. They are near impossible to source, but I assure you they are there. With the right programming you can loose any additional injector. Also by adding fuel pressure you really don't help matters. If the injector is 52#s it is 52#s. You can't make it bigger. You can force a higher pressure through it, but its ability to flow is still hindered. The other problem is if the pressure is raised too high you will cause the injector to stick. If you are setting the pulse width and over drive the injector you will cause it to fail as well. <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
01-26-2003, 07:03 PM
#20
Rennlist Lifetime Member
CJV,
To be honest I am unsure who is tuning your injection, but in reality the car still should be legal. If the system was a batch setup we might have a problem because there is only so much you can squeeze back. The sequential allows us to run much larger injectors, yet maintain low end drivability and emissions. You may want to run different programs depending on what your programmer sorts out. The programming here will be the key. You wonder what size of injectors I can run on the street and maintain emission legal status, yet supply enough power?? I typically run 82# for a lot of our cars. This is a heck of an injector. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> In the day of batch systems I ran two set of injectors based on the stand alone injections. Something similar to yours, but all confined within the same injection system. On the old systems a batch on a 82# would make a good idle really a bear. For our cars I will promise two things, the injectors can be found, and the tuning is the key.
To be honest I am unsure who is tuning your injection, but in reality the car still should be legal. If the system was a batch setup we might have a problem because there is only so much you can squeeze back. The sequential allows us to run much larger injectors, yet maintain low end drivability and emissions. You may want to run different programs depending on what your programmer sorts out. The programming here will be the key. You wonder what size of injectors I can run on the street and maintain emission legal status, yet supply enough power?? I typically run 82# for a lot of our cars. This is a heck of an injector. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> In the day of batch systems I ran two set of injectors based on the stand alone injections. Something similar to yours, but all confined within the same injection system. On the old systems a batch on a 82# would make a good idle really a bear. For our cars I will promise two things, the injectors can be found, and the tuning is the key.
01-26-2003, 08:44 PM
#21
Rennlist Lifetime Member
CJV,
My current RWHP was 510 and my RWTQ was 590. So that basically puts me at 600/700 at the crank with a days worth of work. This was on pump gas and just bolt ons with 1.2 bar. I think if you look at other tuners around you will see that these numbers fair better than most and are a direct reflection of the tuning efforts involved. FWIW I am not running headers either.
Our Stage V is under development and not in production right now. Some of the other things I was hinting to is water injection and possibly L/A intercoolers. I can't say to much as we are working with another entity on that and I am unsure of their feelings about saying anything publicly. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> You know me I normally tell all. <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" /> What I can confirm is the initial numbers coming out with some of these upgrades are making us shake our heat in disbelief over the older turbos. I can only imagine what we can do with my car and a similar system. Development on this should be in the next month or so. <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
All the things EVO is listing is a pure must for the upper ranges like this. I know you know this, but I think you can't emphasis this enough to the people reading these post. I am still waiting for the day someone calls and wants a 1000HP 996TT drag motor <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
My current RWHP was 510 and my RWTQ was 590. So that basically puts me at 600/700 at the crank with a days worth of work. This was on pump gas and just bolt ons with 1.2 bar. I think if you look at other tuners around you will see that these numbers fair better than most and are a direct reflection of the tuning efforts involved. FWIW I am not running headers either.
Our Stage V is under development and not in production right now. Some of the other things I was hinting to is water injection and possibly L/A intercoolers. I can't say to much as we are working with another entity on that and I am unsure of their feelings about saying anything publicly. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> You know me I normally tell all. <img border="0" alt="[blabla]" title="" src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" /> What I can confirm is the initial numbers coming out with some of these upgrades are making us shake our heat in disbelief over the older turbos. I can only imagine what we can do with my car and a similar system. Development on this should be in the next month or so. <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> All the things EVO is listing is a pure must for the upper ranges like this. I know you know this, but I think you can't emphasis this enough to the people reading these post. I am still waiting for the day someone calls and wants a 1000HP 996TT drag motor <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
01-27-2003, 12:09 AM
#22
Rennlist Lifetime Member
That all sounds good. As soon as I am able I will hit you and Rob with some info. So far so good. As far as the shoot out <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" /> ...lets do it out your way...I am sick of this Kansas City cold <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" /> 
01-27-2003, 07:00 AM
#23
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Stephen
why wouldn't a rising rate fuel pressure regulator aid Chad's cause - he needs more fuel at high RPM's and I would expect a RR FPR would be ideal.
I have no practical experience of using one, so feel free to dismiss my suggestion - but add to my knowledge with some good reasons why it wouldn't work!!
why wouldn't a rising rate fuel pressure regulator aid Chad's cause - he needs more fuel at high RPM's and I would expect a RR FPR would be ideal.
I have no practical experience of using one, so feel free to dismiss my suggestion - but add to my knowledge with some good reasons why it wouldn't work!!
01-27-2003, 09:59 AM
#24
Regarding the EVO Stage 4, an owner of this car published AP-22 accelerometer results and speedometer video on this forum to show it's real-life performance. It's acceleration was nearly the same as a Ruf Turbo R with only 490 HP. Turbo latency and ECU software is critical for street cars! Here's an AP-22 run from a Turbo R:
Start Speed 0.0mph
mph s g ft hp
10.0 0.82 0.57 5 34
20.0 1.64 0.62 23 74
30.0 2.16 0.95 42 171
40.0 2.92 0.52 82 130
50.0 3.58 0.71 126 220
60.0 4.24 0.68 179 257
70.0 5.34 0.33 286 163
80.0 6.20 0.55 381 296
90.0 7.08 0.49 491 315
100.0 8.45 0.40 682 308
110.0 9.48 0.41 841 362
120.0 10.62 0.38 1034 390
Pk Power: 118.3mph 10.42s 999ft 392hp
Peak G: 31.8mph 2.24s 46ft 0.95g
Ignore HP since the meter was not calibrated for the vehicle parameters. This was a slip-clutch launch at 2500 RPM. 60-120 MPH in 6.38 seconds. The EVOMS car did it in 6.91 seconds. Note that the 0-100 time would be under 8 seconds with a 3.3 second 0-60 time claimed by an editor at Road & Track magazine.
You could build 95% of a fast street car with computer simulations and math. This would include air flow and turbulence (both internal and external) under initial and steady-state conditions. All part dimensions and specifications can be predicted. Parts would then be built on numerically controlled machines with the CAD 3D output files. The remaining 5% would be minor tweaks on the road. This is how it's done by the factory, and, to some extent, by Ruf and RS Tuning (and maybe a few others!).
Start Speed 0.0mph
mph s g ft hp
10.0 0.82 0.57 5 34
20.0 1.64 0.62 23 74
30.0 2.16 0.95 42 171
40.0 2.92 0.52 82 130
50.0 3.58 0.71 126 220
60.0 4.24 0.68 179 257
70.0 5.34 0.33 286 163
80.0 6.20 0.55 381 296
90.0 7.08 0.49 491 315
100.0 8.45 0.40 682 308
110.0 9.48 0.41 841 362
120.0 10.62 0.38 1034 390
Pk Power: 118.3mph 10.42s 999ft 392hp
Peak G: 31.8mph 2.24s 46ft 0.95g
Ignore HP since the meter was not calibrated for the vehicle parameters. This was a slip-clutch launch at 2500 RPM. 60-120 MPH in 6.38 seconds. The EVOMS car did it in 6.91 seconds. Note that the 0-100 time would be under 8 seconds with a 3.3 second 0-60 time claimed by an editor at Road & Track magazine.
You could build 95% of a fast street car with computer simulations and math. This would include air flow and turbulence (both internal and external) under initial and steady-state conditions. All part dimensions and specifications can be predicted. Parts would then be built on numerically controlled machines with the CAD 3D output files. The remaining 5% would be minor tweaks on the road. This is how it's done by the factory, and, to some extent, by Ruf and RS Tuning (and maybe a few others!).
01-27-2003, 10:47 AM
#25
Rennlist Lifetime Member
John,
Sure a raise in fuel pressure will help and if the needed adjustment is small enough then the raise would be enough. That being the case you are fine. If it is not and you start cranking pressure to the injectors they will stick open, fail or other. They are rated for so much flow and pressure. You cannot make a 36# injector supply as much fuel as an 82#. No matter how much pressure you put through it. Also if you try to feed the injectors a signal that is more than it can handle the you over drive the injector and damage it. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />
Sure a raise in fuel pressure will help and if the needed adjustment is small enough then the raise would be enough. That being the case you are fine. If it is not and you start cranking pressure to the injectors they will stick open, fail or other. They are rated for so much flow and pressure. You cannot make a 36# injector supply as much fuel as an 82#. No matter how much pressure you put through it. Also if you try to feed the injectors a signal that is more than it can handle the you over drive the injector and damage it. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />
01-27-2003, 12:40 PM
#26
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by cjv:
<strong>Deanger,
Also, do you believe your friend would be interested in participating in a magazine shootout article versus a 996tt using same professional driver in each car. This would involve a track lap comparison of a street legal 996tt awd and a 996tt rwd car. I am assuming this car is the Ruf GT R turbo, based on the GT2.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The car was actually a one-off, so I'm not sure what it would be called, but I believe your figures are all correct. I think I can safely say he would not be interested in the match of cars thing. I am sure if you spoke to Ruf they might be able to point you to a willing owner. The Ruf family strike me as very open an honest - though that I garner only from indirect discussion with several people who know them.
You are more the welcome to use my base GT2 if you need to for your test.
<strong>Deanger,
Also, do you believe your friend would be interested in participating in a magazine shootout article versus a 996tt using same professional driver in each car. This would involve a track lap comparison of a street legal 996tt awd and a 996tt rwd car. I am assuming this car is the Ruf GT R turbo, based on the GT2.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The car was actually a one-off, so I'm not sure what it would be called, but I believe your figures are all correct. I think I can safely say he would not be interested in the match of cars thing. I am sure if you spoke to Ruf they might be able to point you to a willing owner. The Ruf family strike me as very open an honest - though that I garner only from indirect discussion with several people who know them.
You are more the welcome to use my base GT2 if you need to for your test.
01-27-2003, 12:43 PM
#27
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Sorry -- didn't see Hamann7 had responded. To answer your question CJV -- I'll find out about the tires. I do believe the front was wider as well.
CJV -- were you this into mods before you started all this?
CJV -- were you this into mods before you started all this?
01-27-2003, 01:09 PM
#28
My numbers with EVO Stage 4 using AP-22 are
Start Speed 0.0mph
mph s g ft hp
10.0 0.63 0.91 10 78
20.0 1.18 0.91 20 170
30.0 1.67 0.96 34 285
40.0 2.64 0.68 84 225
50.0 3.26 0.83 125 398
60.0 3.87 0.65 175 438
70.0 4.88 0.50 273 175
80.0 5.81 0.56 375 475
90.0 6.71 0.44 488 483
100.0 7.76 0.42 635 481
110.0 9.39 0.38 884 485
120.0 10.77 0.26 1118 473
Pk Power: 157.3mph 18.58s 2720ft 515hp
Peak G: 4.0mph .29s 0ft 1.25g
I made a more aggressive launch than you. Perhaps I can't shift quickly? You certainly have a fast car, especially after 100mph. I'm weighing in at 3720lb with driver, how about you? Looks to me like you would smoke me at high speeds. I need more power!
Start Speed 0.0mph
mph s g ft hp
10.0 0.63 0.91 10 78
20.0 1.18 0.91 20 170
30.0 1.67 0.96 34 285
40.0 2.64 0.68 84 225
50.0 3.26 0.83 125 398
60.0 3.87 0.65 175 438
70.0 4.88 0.50 273 175
80.0 5.81 0.56 375 475
90.0 6.71 0.44 488 483
100.0 7.76 0.42 635 481
110.0 9.39 0.38 884 485
120.0 10.77 0.26 1118 473
Pk Power: 157.3mph 18.58s 2720ft 515hp
Peak G: 4.0mph .29s 0ft 1.25g
I made a more aggressive launch than you. Perhaps I can't shift quickly? You certainly have a fast car, especially after 100mph. I'm weighing in at 3720lb with driver, how about you? Looks to me like you would smoke me at high speeds. I need more power!