Sun Ra

no new legal disclaimers in your business Colm? because a few are abusing the systems and expecting a free ride, perhaps?

Marco Polo

Watt, thanks for sharing the European perspective. And your own perspective is reassuring. For me, with the size of the "teapot" being perhaps $30,000+, I wish to explore my options. (Indeed, someone on this board was concerned enough to start a data-accumulation thread. )

U.S. dealers vary widely in their warranty practices. Use of the car on track, albeit in non-competitive events, further complicates that scenario. I have read that replacement rotors cost $8,000 each.

I have read many reports of problems with the rotors, most recently in a letter to the editor of Excellence (Dec. '03) that was published without comment. I do not know of any reassurance from PCNA or PAG on the issue.

These facts represent to me a $30,000 uncertainty. I will hope for the best, but plan for the worst, at least to the point of getting a parts list and costing out the retrofit. If I proceed with the swap and the PCCB proves to be superb with only a minor pad reformulation or a critical maintenance item, I can always bring the PCCB system out of retirement and refit it. I don't wish to be a Beta tester with equipment at this expense level.

In effect, I am considering a $4,000 premium on a $30,000 insurance policy. Not a no-brainer, but not necessarily silly, either.

Sloth

I priced them from an area dealership. If memory serve, the price for rotors are closer to $12,000 each. This is surprising considering that the complete PCCB retrofit kit costs only $13,000. Which means that you could buy a loaded E46 BMW for less money then it would cost to replace the rotors...

bob_dallas

I don't know where you guys are getting those prices from but if your dealer is quoting 8-12K per rotor then I'm going to get in the rotor replacement business real quick. I don't have PCCB so haven't worried too much about replacement cost but I was told around 2k by my dealer which is extreme enough.

FixedWing

Watt,

Why are you being so dogged in your support of PAG and these brakes? It seems like every time someone comes up with additional evidence of problems you seem to be there to counter it. The fact that you personally have no negative experiences doesn’t negate the negative experiences of others. It just simply means you have not yet had negative experiences.

Previously you had claimed that there were almost no failures. Now you tell us that “my pcna exec just returned from europe where they discussed the issue at length”. So if there are almost no failures, what has he/she been talking about at length? Surely these sorts of meetings only take place when there is something to talk about?

The instructions “cool brakes frequently” and “do not hammer the ABS continuously -- use classic 9/10's braking with no abs” both tell me that there are design problems with these brakes. It shouldn’t be necessary for the operator to compensate for the failings of the brakes like this. Brakes shouldn’t need constant cooling and the ABS system should be functional and usable without destroying the system.

Lastly, you’ve told us a few times that you personally will be able to rely on the goodwill of PAG to take care of you if you have a problem. Do you really think it is fair that you get special favours while others are left in the cold? And do you really think that PAG’s performance should be measure based upon how they treat the few like you rather than all of the ordinary Joe’s who buy their cars and obviously don’t have the resources that you do?

And exactly why do you feel so comfortable relying upon the goodwill of PAG to replace your brakes? This is the way business is often done in the third world and my experience has often been that those who believed that they were “in” eventually found out that, when push came to shove, they were really “out”. By that point, there was nothing left for them to do but lick their wounds. Business is business after all.

Stephen

Marco Polo

Just got off the phone with the parts manager at my local dealership. List price per disc for GT2 PCCB rotors is $8,597. The only rotor on the PET for the '04 GT3 is $847; since cast rotors are standard on that model and with that price disparity, I must assume that is they.

Sloth

Well that sounds a lot better than what I was initialy told. Still at $8600 per rotor, it is more cost effective to purchase the entire retrofit kit and replace the entire brake system at once.

PogueMoHone

Watt,

The change in the literature was not a legal disclaimer...it was a change in functionality, by my reading.

Like you I have had no problems with the PCCB, and was quite content to believe that all was well until I saw the not so subtle shift in the product literature.

A reasonable explanation from Porsche for the change would suffice for me, I'm in the camp which assumes that some abuse/over use their brakes and do damage. The purported (in)frequency of these events would hardly spur such a shift on Porsches part.

One dealer tried to whitewash me already. Let's hear them explain it or defend it, at the moment they are backing away from the benefits of ceramics. Why pay for such an option (if it is of limited benefit)...my car sits at the dealer!

I'm right in assuming that you eschewed the ceramics on your GT3.

bob_dallas

If that's the price that multiple dealers are quoting then is an error in Porsche's PET system or they are getting the price for all four (likely scenario). There is no way that a SINGLE rotor costs $8500, especially since the entire retro kit can be bought for 12-13K. I'd be concerned about the ceramics if I had them too, and that's one of the reasons I don't, but use some logic and don't let your emotions get the best of you... $34grand for a set of rotors?

PogueMoHone

bob_dallas,

It would be nice if you were correct, but I would be (pleasantly) surprised

A $5K premium to replace the rotors (over steel) is moving towards reality. At $29K ($32K-$3K) it's just plain stupidity! The question will then become is there $5K worth of benefit.

For me, certainly!

Sun Ra

that letter to excellence is our own fixed wing!!!! right stephen the crusader??

one could ask you :

1] why is there no good will betwixt you and Porsche?
i don't get special favours, just good service like most owners, i do know that unpleasant rude and unreasonable owners are known to find little help... from porsche or anyone else.

2] why are you on a crusade against Porsche and PCCB?

if i was as bummed out as u are about porsche, i'd buy a different brand, which i actually did in 1993-1996. and cease to moan. your hyundai is calling from the grave!!!!

or maybe i caN GET tyson to sell you the mamacita mobile!!! in all its glory

GuyR

Price per disc was quoted by my dealer in the UK at £5,500 each which is about $9,000 per disc, so the european price is the same order of magnitude.

Mine were replaced under warranty due to damage from the previous owner driving on track, but they have made it clear they will not replace another set.

The Service Manager at my Porsche Dealer has advised a switch to steel discs to myself and another GT2 owner, if we are planning on driving the car on the track and to keep the PCCB for resale time.

Guy

FixedWing

It’s me? Wow! I am in Europe now so not had a chance to look yet. Oh, boy, I’m famous now!!!

So is it true that PAG has made no comment on my letter to the editor? Don’t you find this a little surprising? My letter, if it was printed in full, made some very specific factual allegations. Wouldn’t one expect them to deny them if they weren’t true?

You’re making lots and lots of assumptions here Watt…

I’m not. In fact, Porsche makes excellent performance cars – and certainly the best performance cars on the market today in terms of value for money. My next car is more than likely going to be a Porsche.

As for PCCB’s … yes, I am a little pissed off at the way Porsche has foisted these on their customers without properly engineering and testing them and then refused to admit their mistakes. I have been more of a victim than most as I was promised the moon and the stars when I put these on my car and when I have been handed has been one headache after another.

I do think that there is a cultural problem within Porsche that prevents them, as an organisation, from addressing these problems properly.

Very nice photo of your car… What made you return to the Porsche fold?

Stephen

Sun Ra

stephen,

aint that a great ride? i bet i can get tyson to give it up to you, now he's got his 700 HP, ridiculously loud protomotivemobile.... sure is fast tho'.



i got pissed in 1991 because the cars were feeling too "grand touring" and not enuf 70 S light and fun... you know how you always tell me to stop moaning about the gt3 RS not coming to the states, well nothing new. the late 80's early 90's cars bugged me.

and as you know i still hate the weight, but i do like the addtional safety added.

and my recent TT's, GT2's and GT3's have proven to be faster than my going out rig, which you can buy also, but she doesnt come with the car:

Jack

Check out page 124 of the Dec. 2003 Excellence -- Carlsen Porsche ad--
Complete PCCB kit (calipers/rotors) for $13,000. Sounds like a bargain.