GT2 brakes (Ceramic) = useless
10-10-2003, 09:50 PM
#46
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Color,
I'll answer your question this way. My garage houses 3 Porsches. A 2002 GT2 and a pair of 2004 GT3s. The GT3's were ordered with steel rotors <grin>
For the option price of the PCCB brakes, I can afford to replace steel rotors for a long long time. For the price of the option on the GT3 plus the price of a new set of PCCB rotors not covered by warranty I can buy a pretty nice car complete with rotors! Until Porsche sorts this out I will chose steel if given the choice.
I'll answer your question this way. My garage houses 3 Porsches. A 2002 GT2 and a pair of 2004 GT3s. The GT3's were ordered with steel rotors <grin>
For the option price of the PCCB brakes, I can afford to replace steel rotors for a long long time. For the price of the option on the GT3 plus the price of a new set of PCCB rotors not covered by warranty I can buy a pretty nice car complete with rotors! Until Porsche sorts this out I will chose steel if given the choice.
10-10-2003, 10:09 PM
#47
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Color,
You didn't ask me what I think but I'll chime in anyway.
I thought long and hard about this, read all the treads, and underlying suggestions, and have finally decided that ceramics are the way to go.
It seems (to me) that Guy's and Bob's car got messed up because they inadvertantly used the comfort (black) pads. In fact it seems as some dealers rather than Porsche were the source of the problems, and Porsche stepped up to the plate to take care of the customer. That was a pretty nice gesture for which they should get credit.
Every knowledgeable person I've talked to involved in track, and at Porsche design has given me enough consistent information (positive and negative) to make me comfortable once again. If that is "blind faith" so be it!
If my sole objective was to only minimize costs then the steel rotors are a no brainer, but for me in the long run the ceramics will better match the car's design and purpose.
Now, if I could only come close to it's limits.....!
You didn't ask me what I think but I'll chime in anyway.
I thought long and hard about this, read all the treads, and underlying suggestions, and have finally decided that ceramics are the way to go.
It seems (to me) that Guy's and Bob's car got messed up because they inadvertantly used the comfort (black) pads. In fact it seems as some dealers rather than Porsche were the source of the problems, and Porsche stepped up to the plate to take care of the customer. That was a pretty nice gesture for which they should get credit.
Every knowledgeable person I've talked to involved in track, and at Porsche design has given me enough consistent information (positive and negative) to make me comfortable once again. If that is "blind faith" so be it!
If my sole objective was to only minimize costs then the steel rotors are a no brainer, but for me in the long run the ceramics will better match the car's design and purpose.
Now, if I could only come close to it's limits.....!
10-11-2003, 10:40 AM
#48
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My experiences
I've had many of these things happen with my PCCB on my GT2. I went from yellow pads - to green race pads (I always use DOT4 fluid) and they just don't work as advertised. As a matter of fact they don't work as well as stock 2001 turbo with Pagid Orange pads.
After Porsche refused to replace my two front rotors (at a quoted price of $18 grand) with only 1700 miles on the car - I have replaced my PCCB brakes all around with Brembo GT's. The Brembo's work tremendously well.
I am currently at the Better Business Bureau (per Porsche requirements as listed in the owners manual) to try and settle - before litigation.
You can see my extensive posting in the water cooled 996 forum under
"another PCCB story". I think I got some 60 responses and 2500 views.
I also have pictures of the damaged PCCB rotors - but I don't know how to post them on the forum.
After Porsche refused to replace my two front rotors (at a quoted price of $18 grand) with only 1700 miles on the car - I have replaced my PCCB brakes all around with Brembo GT's. The Brembo's work tremendously well.
I am currently at the Better Business Bureau (per Porsche requirements as listed in the owners manual) to try and settle - before litigation.
You can see my extensive posting in the water cooled 996 forum under
"another PCCB story". I think I got some 60 responses and 2500 views.
I also have pictures of the damaged PCCB rotors - but I don't know how to post them on the forum.
10-11-2003, 10:56 AM
#49
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Re: My experiences
Originally posted by Mark GT2
I also have pictures of the damaged PCCB rotors - but I don't know how to post them on the forum.
I also have pictures of the damaged PCCB rotors - but I don't know how to post them on the forum.
10-11-2003, 11:50 AM
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The stock ceramics on my GT2 have always been much better than the stock brakes on my former TT.
I quess this all comes down to opinion, and possible driving style.
Did you switch to the "greens", before you had problems or after you had problems with the "yellows".
Your problem, while troublesome and potentially expensive for you, seems to be atypical. What has not been answered (objectively and independantly) yet, is what was the fundamental cause of your problem.
I would hope that if Porsche were at fault they would step up to plate. It's curious to me that they appear to have done so in other situations (where black pads were used on the track inadvertantly) and not for you.
Keep us all posted on what happens, and let us know what the Judge says.
I hope it gets resolved properly.
I quess this all comes down to opinion, and possible driving style.
Did you switch to the "greens", before you had problems or after you had problems with the "yellows".
Your problem, while troublesome and potentially expensive for you, seems to be atypical. What has not been answered (objectively and independantly) yet, is what was the fundamental cause of your problem.
I would hope that if Porsche were at fault they would step up to plate. It's curious to me that they appear to have done so in other situations (where black pads were used on the track inadvertantly) and not for you.
Keep us all posted on what happens, and let us know what the Judge says.
I hope it gets resolved properly.
10-11-2003, 12:05 PM
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More Info
If you read my entire post "another PCCB story" you'll understand all the things that took place. One of my initial inquiries into this subject - when I still had the yellow pads - was directed to Alwin Springer (I believe that he is the President of Porsche Motor Sports of North America - the racing division)
*********************************************************
February 2003 I sent this note to Alwin Springer of Porsche Motor Sports
"I recently purchased a new 2002 GT2 and the car is used almost exclusively for track events I've noticed that the stock pads did not work well on the track and I’m trying to resolve this issue. The GT2 has the ceramic brakes and is totally stock except for hoosier tires.
While driving the car at Watkins Glen (the weather was about 40 degrees this past October) at the end of the back strait I would hit the brakes hard (going about 160-165 mph) and the ABS did not kick in.....the tires did not lock up.....and I just continued rolling forward...slowing down....but not very fast (it was as if the breaks had not been warm). I should note that I had run a few laps to warm up the brakes before doing this.
I then took my 2001 twin turbo out to the same spot, at about the same speed, and it stopped on a dime - everytime (the turbo has pagid orange pads but everything else is stock).
Any suggestions? Any pads for this application? I’m hoping that I won’t have to replace the entire brake system to achieve proper performance."
Note: Alwin called me back and informed me that the brakes DID NOT work well when they were heated up. He also told me that Porsche had just released 2 other types of brake pads for the car to try and resolve this problem… so now there were 3 types (street pad, sport pad, and race pad – I had been using the sport - yellow - pad)
********************************************************
That was my first confirmation that there was a problem.
Then I went to the green race pads - and with only 1700 miles on the car the rotors were totally trashed and started flaking apart (granted they were mostly track miles - and the green pads did work better - but still not as well as the turbo - we even drove both cars together and tested them). The green pads only lasted 30% as long as my pagid orange pad on my turbo with the same level of use.
*********************************************************
February 2003 I sent this note to Alwin Springer of Porsche Motor Sports
"I recently purchased a new 2002 GT2 and the car is used almost exclusively for track events I've noticed that the stock pads did not work well on the track and I’m trying to resolve this issue. The GT2 has the ceramic brakes and is totally stock except for hoosier tires.
While driving the car at Watkins Glen (the weather was about 40 degrees this past October) at the end of the back strait I would hit the brakes hard (going about 160-165 mph) and the ABS did not kick in.....the tires did not lock up.....and I just continued rolling forward...slowing down....but not very fast (it was as if the breaks had not been warm). I should note that I had run a few laps to warm up the brakes before doing this.
I then took my 2001 twin turbo out to the same spot, at about the same speed, and it stopped on a dime - everytime (the turbo has pagid orange pads but everything else is stock).
Any suggestions? Any pads for this application? I’m hoping that I won’t have to replace the entire brake system to achieve proper performance."
Note: Alwin called me back and informed me that the brakes DID NOT work well when they were heated up. He also told me that Porsche had just released 2 other types of brake pads for the car to try and resolve this problem… so now there were 3 types (street pad, sport pad, and race pad – I had been using the sport - yellow - pad)
********************************************************
That was my first confirmation that there was a problem.
Then I went to the green race pads - and with only 1700 miles on the car the rotors were totally trashed and started flaking apart (granted they were mostly track miles - and the green pads did work better - but still not as well as the turbo - we even drove both cars together and tested them). The green pads only lasted 30% as long as my pagid orange pad on my turbo with the same level of use.
10-11-2003, 02:09 PM
#53
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Pad braking in
Not an issue with the break in of the pads. We were very careful when we broke them in.
It's important to note that we did not notice that the rotors started to flake apart until we used the green track pads......in the pictures those marks on the rotor are actually depressions from which the rotor material starts to flake out. I'm not saying the yellow pads didn't contribute to the damage - just can't confirm if they did or not.
It's important to note that we did not notice that the rotors started to flake apart until we used the green track pads......in the pictures those marks on the rotor are actually depressions from which the rotor material starts to flake out. I'm not saying the yellow pads didn't contribute to the damage - just can't confirm if they did or not.
10-11-2003, 05:52 PM
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Mark,
Your photos as well as the description of what happend is exactly what the engineer told me and what a series of customers have experienced. There is at least 4 GT2s not including the one I drove, that I know of and that are using iron cast rotors.
In my case at SPA and on only 4 laps, I did not experience "flaking" of the disks, but just overheating of the fluid due to bad transfer of heat from the rotors.
I hope we all come to realize now that there is no particular need for PCCBs given the downsides. Maybe the Carrera GT uses a different compound, pad, hub and caliper that works - but I am not at all familiar with the GTs setup.
Gerard
Your photos as well as the description of what happend is exactly what the engineer told me and what a series of customers have experienced. There is at least 4 GT2s not including the one I drove, that I know of and that are using iron cast rotors.
In my case at SPA and on only 4 laps, I did not experience "flaking" of the disks, but just overheating of the fluid due to bad transfer of heat from the rotors.
I hope we all come to realize now that there is no particular need for PCCBs given the downsides. Maybe the Carrera GT uses a different compound, pad, hub and caliper that works - but I am not at all familiar with the GTs setup.
Gerard
10-12-2003, 04:48 PM
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The flaking effect was the same as occurred on my discs (sadly I forgot to take a photo). The flaking had occurred in the middle of the disc, not the outer rims, so was definitely not down to the pad mounting.
To re-iterate, Porsche looked after me 100% and I was very satisifed that they replaced my discs, though this was at least partly due to the fact that the damage was clearly done at the hands of a previous owner.
If I was to do a lot of trackdays I would change to steel all-round though and keep the PCCB for re-sale time......
To re-iterate, Porsche looked after me 100% and I was very satisifed that they replaced my discs, though this was at least partly due to the fact that the damage was clearly done at the hands of a previous owner.
If I was to do a lot of trackdays I would change to steel all-round though and keep the PCCB for re-sale time......
10-13-2003, 04:57 PM
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Bob:
It sounds like iron is the way to go. This is what I intend to do if I have a problem with the stock brakes that I can't fix with additional cooling. If so, I think I will go with Brembo LeMans on 19's with Hoosiers.
Colm, good luck. Too much money for me with so much performance risk. I have never heard of anyone who complains about their Brembo's.
Tim
It sounds like iron is the way to go. This is what I intend to do if I have a problem with the stock brakes that I can't fix with additional cooling. If so, I think I will go with Brembo LeMans on 19's with Hoosiers.
Colm, good luck. Too much money for me with so much performance risk. I have never heard of anyone who complains about their Brembo's.
Tim
10-13-2003, 09:45 PM
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I think Auto Motor und Sport did a comparison test last year of the cast iron vs ceramic brakes and found the cast iron brakes were the better performer (don't know the extend that they pushed the cars). The 6-piston calipers are massive (105 sq cm pad surface area vs 76.5 sq cm for the stock 996tt monoblocks) and a 350x34mm or 380x32mm disk option exists from the factory (one company is coming out with a 400mm rotor later this year but that will primarily aimed at the SUV market with silly 22" + rims). As was suggested, sounds like the switch back to cast iron is not a bad idea for track use. SD
10-14-2003, 06:03 AM
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Thank you Mark (and Jack) for the photos. That is just plain scary!
What did the pads that came off look like?
Your car is a PCNA car? So the BBB requirement is a requirement in the USA? How is the process going? My advice is to seek discovery of the engineering data. There has to be a smoking gun somewhere within Porsche.
Good luck!
Stephen
p.s. any larger, more detailed versions of these photos?
What did the pads that came off look like?
Your car is a PCNA car? So the BBB requirement is a requirement in the USA? How is the process going? My advice is to seek discovery of the engineering data. There has to be a smoking gun somewhere within Porsche.
Good luck!
Stephen
p.s. any larger, more detailed versions of these photos?
10-14-2003, 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by ColorChange
If so, I think I will go with Brembo LeMans on 19's with Hoosiers.
If so, I think I will go with Brembo LeMans on 19's with Hoosiers.