Longevity/durability of Mezger engines in 996/997 GT3's
#31
#32
Where did you see the 5W-50 listed?
I've yet to see anything from Porsche Motorsport or PMNA that deviated from 0W-40 or 5W-40 for the Cups, R and RSR. Any conversation I have had directly followed the same lines.
I looked back through my various service and support manuals to see if I had missed something but couldn't see anything listed other than these two options.
Its one of the few things that has remained consistent over the last decade or so I've been around them.
BTW, that picture of your dog never fails to make me smile.
I've yet to see anything from Porsche Motorsport or PMNA that deviated from 0W-40 or 5W-40 for the Cups, R and RSR. Any conversation I have had directly followed the same lines.
I looked back through my various service and support manuals to see if I had missed something but couldn't see anything listed other than these two options.
Its one of the few things that has remained consistent over the last decade or so I've been around them.
BTW, that picture of your dog never fails to make me smile.
#33
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Where did you see the 5W-50 listed?
I've yet to see anything from Porsche Motorsport or PMNA that deviated from 0W-40 or 5W-40 for the Cups, R and RSR. Any conversation I have had directly followed the same lines.
I looked back through my various service and support manuals to see if I had missed something but couldn't see anything listed other than these two options.
Its one of the few things that has remained consistent over the last decade or so I've been around them.
BTW, that picture of your dog never fails to make me smile.
I've yet to see anything from Porsche Motorsport or PMNA that deviated from 0W-40 or 5W-40 for the Cups, R and RSR. Any conversation I have had directly followed the same lines.
I looked back through my various service and support manuals to see if I had missed something but couldn't see anything listed other than these two options.
Its one of the few things that has remained consistent over the last decade or so I've been around them.
BTW, that picture of your dog never fails to make me smile.
#34
Longevity/durability of Mezger engines in 996/997 GT3's
Originally Posted by golfnutintib
as op i must say i think the when it comes to cup cars and their engine lubrication needs the context is very different than our street/track-driven gt3 car mezgers... cup car engines are rebuilt in short time frames counted in hours... a different deal altogether... so to me this particular vein of discussion sheds far more heat than light
Sometimes I think we forget that some of these cars never see 5000- redline and some only see 5000rpm- redline.
#35
Rennlist Member
Both Mobil1 0w-40 and 5w-50 are Porsche approved for our cars... The 0w-40 gives the benefit of less resistance and therefore better fuel economy and slightly better power. I have used the Mobil 1 5w-50 since my first service as I do a lot of track kms and it offers better protection at the higher operating temperatures typical on track.
http://www.porscheownersmanuals.com/en/2/190/
There are many other brands approved for use by Porsche also...
http://www.porscheownersmanuals.com/en/2/190/
There are many other brands approved for use by Porsche also...
#36
Race Car
I enjoy an oil debate every now and then. I think everyone needs to form their own opinion and use what they are comfortable using.
As a former BMW nerd I think the history of the TWS 10w 60 is skued here. My 2002 E46 M3 came from the factory with 5w-30...I've still got the owners manual somewhere showing this. The switch to 10w 60 (and I agree they hyped it as a new formula it was just new packaging) was when the E46 M3's started eating rod bearings. There was a recall on every single E46 produced from '01 through the middle of '03 when they did a mid year update to replace the rod bearings in every single car.
They went from rod bearings with tight tolerances to slightly larger tolerances which necessitated the use of the 10w 60 oil.
My car never used a drop of oil in the 7 years and multiple multiple track days it experienced either with the original or the new rod bearings.
I believe there was a mindset change in the motorsport division after that on bearing tolerances and the continued use of the 10w 60 oil with the success they saw in the E46 after the switch
I personally think the 10 60 is an outstanding oil, but I'd rather use an outstanding oil in the proper recommended weight for the GT3 than something thicker. I personally have chosen to run 5w-40 Motul 300v in my car and have nothing bad to say about it. Oil analysis shows a healthy engine and it gets changed every 6 track days...which with combined street driving works out to about every 2k miles.
As a former BMW nerd I think the history of the TWS 10w 60 is skued here. My 2002 E46 M3 came from the factory with 5w-30...I've still got the owners manual somewhere showing this. The switch to 10w 60 (and I agree they hyped it as a new formula it was just new packaging) was when the E46 M3's started eating rod bearings. There was a recall on every single E46 produced from '01 through the middle of '03 when they did a mid year update to replace the rod bearings in every single car.
They went from rod bearings with tight tolerances to slightly larger tolerances which necessitated the use of the 10w 60 oil.
My car never used a drop of oil in the 7 years and multiple multiple track days it experienced either with the original or the new rod bearings.
I believe there was a mindset change in the motorsport division after that on bearing tolerances and the continued use of the 10w 60 oil with the success they saw in the E46 after the switch
I personally think the 10 60 is an outstanding oil, but I'd rather use an outstanding oil in the proper recommended weight for the GT3 than something thicker. I personally have chosen to run 5w-40 Motul 300v in my car and have nothing bad to say about it. Oil analysis shows a healthy engine and it gets changed every 6 track days...which with combined street driving works out to about every 2k miles.
#37
Three Wheelin'
Heh I guess a lot of us come from the S54 (myself included) and I went through an engine replacement in my E46 after the original owner had already done the rod bearings replacement under original warranty.
8k miles after I bought my 2002 E46 M3, the engine developed a tick and BMW Fairfax gave me a replacement engine under warranty and claimed that the issue was rod bearings (again). I didn't push for more details since they were giving me a new/remanufactured engine but I have a feeling I had a VANOS issue and not rod bearing.
Either way, and for what it's worth, I only used 10w-60 from mile 0 in the replacement engine and drove it for 60k miles. Oil changes every 7500 miles and the engine did not use oil (as well as healthy Blackstone analysis from every change). Multiple track days and that engine was very healthy and barely needed valve adjustments.
8k miles after I bought my 2002 E46 M3, the engine developed a tick and BMW Fairfax gave me a replacement engine under warranty and claimed that the issue was rod bearings (again). I didn't push for more details since they were giving me a new/remanufactured engine but I have a feeling I had a VANOS issue and not rod bearing.
Either way, and for what it's worth, I only used 10w-60 from mile 0 in the replacement engine and drove it for 60k miles. Oil changes every 7500 miles and the engine did not use oil (as well as healthy Blackstone analysis from every change). Multiple track days and that engine was very healthy and barely needed valve adjustments.
#38
Where did you see the 5W-50 listed?
I've yet to see anything from Porsche Motorsport or PMNA that deviated from 0W-40 or 5W-40 for the Cups, R and RSR. Any conversation I have had directly followed the same lines.
I looked back through my various service and support manuals to see if I had missed something but couldn't see anything listed other than these two options.
Its one of the few things that has remained consistent over the last decade or so I've been around them.
BTW, that picture of your dog never fails to make me smile.
I've yet to see anything from Porsche Motorsport or PMNA that deviated from 0W-40 or 5W-40 for the Cups, R and RSR. Any conversation I have had directly followed the same lines.
I looked back through my various service and support manuals to see if I had missed something but couldn't see anything listed other than these two options.
Its one of the few things that has remained consistent over the last decade or so I've been around them.
BTW, that picture of your dog never fails to make me smile.
#39
Rennlist Member
That is another misconception about Castrol 10W60... It started off as Castrol RS 10W60 way before BMW's /// M engines supposedly started to drink oil... Then it was re-branded as TWS, which stood for Ten W Sixty and now it is called Castrol Edge... There have been some subtle changes in the formulation, particularly with regards to ZDDP content, but in general it has been around since way beyond the first engine it had approval for - the S54.
Secondly, as a serial BMW ///M owner I beg to differ on the drinking oil stuff. The 4-cylinder engines do not drink oil at all. The 6-cylinder engines do not drink oil if in good health either. I have had two S54s from new - in a M3 SMG and in a Z4MC coupe. Still have the M3 on 95k miles, sold the Z4MC after 50k miles, of which about 20k miles were spent on track. The first V8 - the S62 drank oil, but then BMW changed the design of the rings and they stopped. The S85 drinks oil, but it is a V10 that revs to 8250rpm, the size of the piston skirts is laughable and it is in a alusil block. What exactly did you expect? FYI, the S85 consumes about 1.5ltrs of oil every 3000miles. About par for the course on a 996 or 997 Carrera engine...
P.S. You all talk about thermal this, thermal that. Viscosity this, viscosity that. Go and read what happens to film strength once the oil is diluted with fuel. Ah, perhaps 10W60 is a lot better at that? And perhaps most GT3s/TT spent a lot more time at WOT than normal?
I am out of this debate as I am really struggling with some people who are armchair mechanics arguing indirectly with one of the most successful Porsche teams globally. Perhaps I should print this thread and take it to Manthey next time my car goes in for servicing so that the wrenches there can have a right laugh?
Secondly, as a serial BMW ///M owner I beg to differ on the drinking oil stuff. The 4-cylinder engines do not drink oil at all. The 6-cylinder engines do not drink oil if in good health either. I have had two S54s from new - in a M3 SMG and in a Z4MC coupe. Still have the M3 on 95k miles, sold the Z4MC after 50k miles, of which about 20k miles were spent on track. The first V8 - the S62 drank oil, but then BMW changed the design of the rings and they stopped. The S85 drinks oil, but it is a V10 that revs to 8250rpm, the size of the piston skirts is laughable and it is in a alusil block. What exactly did you expect? FYI, the S85 consumes about 1.5ltrs of oil every 3000miles. About par for the course on a 996 or 997 Carrera engine...
P.S. You all talk about thermal this, thermal that. Viscosity this, viscosity that. Go and read what happens to film strength once the oil is diluted with fuel. Ah, perhaps 10W60 is a lot better at that? And perhaps most GT3s/TT spent a lot more time at WOT than normal?
I am out of this debate as I am really struggling with some people who are armchair mechanics arguing indirectly with one of the most successful Porsche teams globally. Perhaps I should print this thread and take it to Manthey next time my car goes in for servicing so that the wrenches there can have a right laugh?
this man is right castrol 10w-60 is one of the best oils you can buy in the world.
i've spoken to numerous race and car engineers and almost all universally agree that castrol 10-60 is the real deal. i've ran it in all my track cars with great results for over a decade now....
#40
GT3 player par excellence
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oil again?
i just run mobil 1 0/40
when engine blows up, i just buy another engine
you all worry way too much.
go driven the damn car
i just run mobil 1 0/40
when engine blows up, i just buy another engine
you all worry way too much.
go driven the damn car
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brontosaurus (12-03-2020)
#41
as op i must say i think the when it comes to cup cars and their engine lubrication needs the context is very different than our street/track-driven gt3 car mezgers... cup car engines are rebuilt in short time frames counted in hours... a different deal altogether... so to me this particular vein of discussion sheds far more heat than light
race cars such as the GT3Rs and the Cup cars have a VERY VERY different life to road cars. they rev to like 10k and that is where wear on engines is just huge.
wear to the engine increases massively as you get up the rev range so if you keep the road engine to the recommend 8k limit then it will go on and on and on. same with oil....high revs = heat and breaking down of the oil so that is why they are changed after every session I would imagine!
the mezger engine could rev to 10k from what I have been told in Germany from a friend that works in Stuttgart at porsche but Porsche have to warranty these things for up to 10 years with extended so going everywhere at like 9k and the occasional 10k then it won't last.
I would imagine that when Porsche built the GT3 they imagined it would last well past 250k miles or even more as they have a reputation here. there are a few GT3s around with 180k plus mileage and engine is still fine. mostly road use I would imagine.
I know of a 993 C2 engine that has 280k miles and its never been opened up. just looked after and used.
#42
Race Director
http://www.carreracup.com.au/sites/d...anual%20V2.pdf
Mobil 0w-40 is the only oil listed.
As for race teams recommending 10w-60 oil, I'm a little suspicious of the technical info race teams elect to "share" with other teams and privateers.
I find it hard to imagine a race team coming up the best setup the hard way to then turn around and share this with other teams.
Do these teams share suspension setup? Wing settings? Tire pressures? Fuel/ignition maps and other things for a specific track? How about engine assembly details? Cam timings? And other tricks they have learned to give them an edge?
I'm sure the team drivers are also real helpful taking the time to point out to a competing driver that he is not taking the fastest line, or braking too late or too early.
If I managed a race team I might set out empty jugs of 10w-60 oil or 20w oil or whatever but what the techs actually used in the engine would be a team secret shareable with no one else.
#43
GT3 player par excellence
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dont compare engine longevity of 993 964 911 vs gt3. take a look at how low revving those engines are
change oil often dont worry grade
listening to race team is the absolute worst thing you can do. i raced bicycles long time in college and grad school. what we use and find to be best will kill you. EX: to get my bike to turn faster at times i would risk and run 90 or even 80mm stem. YOU will crash and kill yourself. i ride on frames that are custom built for riders 250+ plus when i was 150# just so i can have it stiff. so stiff now my lower back is f up..... but i war fast with it. race team does things for reasons that may not be of any benefit to a street car. in fact, if you do the opposite of what race teams do, you will be much better off.
change oil often dont worry grade
listening to race team is the absolute worst thing you can do. i raced bicycles long time in college and grad school. what we use and find to be best will kill you. EX: to get my bike to turn faster at times i would risk and run 90 or even 80mm stem. YOU will crash and kill yourself. i ride on frames that are custom built for riders 250+ plus when i was 150# just so i can have it stiff. so stiff now my lower back is f up..... but i war fast with it. race team does things for reasons that may not be of any benefit to a street car. in fact, if you do the opposite of what race teams do, you will be much better off.
#44
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
dont compare engine longevity of 993 964 911 vs gt3. take a look at how low revving those engines are
change oil often dont worry grade
listening to race team is the absolute worst thing you can do. i raced bicycles long time in college and grad school. what we use and find to be best will kill you. EX: to get my bike to turn faster at times i would risk and run 90 or even 80mm stem. YOU will crash and kill yourself. i ride on frames that are custom built for riders 250+ plus when i was 150# just so i can have it stiff. so stiff now my lower back is f up..... but i war fast with it. race team does things for reasons that may not be of any benefit to a street car. in fact, if you do the opposite of what race teams do, you will be much better off.
change oil often dont worry grade
listening to race team is the absolute worst thing you can do. i raced bicycles long time in college and grad school. what we use and find to be best will kill you. EX: to get my bike to turn faster at times i would risk and run 90 or even 80mm stem. YOU will crash and kill yourself. i ride on frames that are custom built for riders 250+ plus when i was 150# just so i can have it stiff. so stiff now my lower back is f up..... but i war fast with it. race team does things for reasons that may not be of any benefit to a street car. in fact, if you do the opposite of what race teams do, you will be much better off.
mooty - couldn't agree more
i started this thread to get wisdom on longevity of street car, not cup car, mezgers
thread pretty much jacked at this point - oh well
Last edited by golfnutintib; 09-08-2015 at 02:47 AM.
#45
GT3 player par excellence
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^ so i guess you dont play S300 dynamic gold with little blades like MP14 or 29 ;-)
i to got single digit playing MP14 but with cavity back i am scratch, but hey, i wanted to be manly with forged blades.
anyways, i know of several 6gt3 with 6 000+ track miles. so they are pretty durable and re-buildable.
i to got single digit playing MP14 but with cavity back i am scratch, but hey, i wanted to be manly with forged blades.
anyways, i know of several 6gt3 with 6 000+ track miles. so they are pretty durable and re-buildable.