Another Joe Toth Custom Prototype - 996 GT3 Gurney Flap
10-31-2013, 02:23 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Guys, I have a problem. Folks have asked me to make wings and the ram air scoop in the past. My problem is some one else already makes those parts. I hate copying. My original 951 splitter was copied in California and being sold as an original design. Needless to say I was not a happy camper. I don't want to infringe on others efforts and hard work. I wouldn't mind doing the scoop but it would have to be original. That said how different can you make a scoop or a wing. Let me think about the scoop and see if I can't come up with something.
Thanks for the support
Thanks for the support
10-31-2013, 07:17 PM
#34
Drifting
Guys I'd like to chime in here. Please do not read this as if I am mad or upset. I'm too old and comfortable with what I do to be offended. I am neither an aero engineer nor a vendor. Just a dumb *** moldmaker who likes to fool around with composites in his spare time. Maybe I don't smell enough resin fumes during the day at my regular job and need more of a fix after hours. Ian asked if I would be interested in making a Gurney flap for his car and my response was YES what the heck I've got nothing better at this five minutes. Don"t know if it will help the aero on his car and frankly don't care. IT SURE AS HELL LOOKS GOOD. We are taking a proven principle and modifying it to fit his wing. I strongly feel there will be some benifit but without a wind tunnel who knows. Maybe it will have a placebo effect when Ian is on track thinking the part is helping and he'll go faster. Who knows. I build this stuff for fun and some folks like my designs. The original GT3 splitter I gave Ian sat around for two years in my shop before I gave it to Ian. By all the feedback from happy drivers it works quite well. Thanks to all those folks using the part. The original 951 piece I built was strictly for myself as I was not happy with what was available in the market. People who saw it wanted one and I have been pleased to provide the parts to those folks. This is not a business and I'm not going to get rich making a few Porsche pieces. I enjoy doing this stuff and if there are people out there who like what they see and would like a part I am more than happy to make it for them. I'm not trying to convince people these parts are the best things since sliced bread and I won't lose sleep over not making a sale.
Anyways I hope you all enjoy the parts I make and what I'm working on.
Open to all suggestions of other pieces to make
Thanks
Joe.
Anyways I hope you all enjoy the parts I make and what I'm working on.
Open to all suggestions of other pieces to make
Thanks
Joe.
11-10-2013, 10:26 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Okay, I just picked up the final product of Joe's hard work. I installed using 3M automotive molding tape, and the fit is perfect. Joe has a few ready to go, so let him know if you're interested in one (tei@telus.net, 604-329-9391).
11-11-2013, 10:23 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Looks great. Would like to hear if you feel a difference on track compared to last track day without flap.
11-17-2013, 01:54 PM
#38
Guys, I have a problem. Folks have asked me to make wings and the ram air scoop in the past. My problem is some one else already makes those parts. I hate copying. My original 951 splitter was copied in California and being sold as an original design. Needless to say I was not a happy camper. I don't want to infringe on others efforts and hard work. I wouldn't mind doing the scoop but it would have to be original. That said how different can you make a scoop or a wing. Let me think about the scoop and see if I can't come up with something.
Thanks for the support
Thanks for the support
11-19-2013, 10:02 PM
#39
Race Car
Looks great Joe - nice job!
Oh and agree w those above re making 2010 cup size inspired ram scoops
Ie bigger and/or separate. Scope for tweaks/nicer lines.
Oh and agree w those above re making 2010 cup size inspired ram scoops
Ie bigger and/or separate. Scope for tweaks/nicer lines.
12-26-2013, 10:44 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
Thanks, Joe, for acknowledging the likely cosmetic aspect of this sort of Gurney-style lip. Folks, kgorman is correct here. Yes, Gurney lips have proven to be effective on certain cars with certain heavily-tested aero systems. I say systems because the entire car's aero--splitter, wing, ride height, rake, tire widths, suspension, track surface and layout, weather conditions, etc etc etc--are all a factor in a car's overall aero-enhanced grip on track, and the corner by corner compromises it has. Heck...put too much rear DF on a car with stock springs & dampers, and you will dramatically alter the rake and ride heights at speed, which will not be fun when it is time to brake and turn. Same as adding too big a splitter.
Adding a lip like this, by itself, to the well-designed Porsche OEM wing, may or may not do anything...and may in fact have negative consequences beyond the placebo effect. IMO, Porsche designs pretty good factory aero bits, generally, and they are part of an overall well-tested and balanced package.
I have seen clients add the lip to a traditional Cup-style wing and have no effect...or even a negative effect...on lap times. I am sure you have seen some "pro" teams running Gurney lips...while others don't. All of these groups HEAVILY test their cars before you ever see them on TV.
Some of you here I know to be very serious about your craft on track. My only suggestion (which is somewhhat self-serving) is to really test components like these before you decide whether to use them...or better yet hire a pro like me to test with & without, and then if you like the "with" to help get the car properly set up to best take advantage of the part.
Adding a lip like this, by itself, to the well-designed Porsche OEM wing, may or may not do anything...and may in fact have negative consequences beyond the placebo effect. IMO, Porsche designs pretty good factory aero bits, generally, and they are part of an overall well-tested and balanced package.
I have seen clients add the lip to a traditional Cup-style wing and have no effect...or even a negative effect...on lap times. I am sure you have seen some "pro" teams running Gurney lips...while others don't. All of these groups HEAVILY test their cars before you ever see them on TV.
Some of you here I know to be very serious about your craft on track. My only suggestion (which is somewhhat self-serving) is to really test components like these before you decide whether to use them...or better yet hire a pro like me to test with & without, and then if you like the "with" to help get the car properly set up to best take advantage of the part.
06-21-2014, 02:21 AM
#41
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Okay, I've finally driven on-track with my Joe Toth gurney flap. Running clockwise at Oregon Raceway Park, I shaved 0.5 sec off my best laptime compared to last September (1:56.25 versus 1:56.73). Same top speed according to my AIM Solo laptimer, so no measurable increase in drag. Same Nitto NT01 tires as last year, and still running same Joe Toth 2-piece front splitter.
Obviously I cannot definitively conclude that downforce from the gurney flap was solely responsible for the improved laptime. However my top speeds were consistently similar to last year, so I would say with some confidence that the gurney flap is not generating a measurable increase in drag.
I've had many compliments on this custom part, I personally think it looks great, and if anything appears to be positively impacting my laptimes. So I'm happy with it. I'm sure Joe would make more if any of you are still interested in one.
Obviously I cannot definitively conclude that downforce from the gurney flap was solely responsible for the improved laptime. However my top speeds were consistently similar to last year, so I would say with some confidence that the gurney flap is not generating a measurable increase in drag.
I've had many compliments on this custom part, I personally think it looks great, and if anything appears to be positively impacting my laptimes. So I'm happy with it. I'm sure Joe would make more if any of you are still interested in one.
Last edited by IanM; 06-21-2014 at 03:14 AM.
02-05-2016, 02:25 AM
#45
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter