What if.... I sold the GT3 and built a track M3
12-29-2007, 08:37 AM
#46
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Can you direct me in how to find all these cars? I'm looking to go to a track prepped 944. I have been searching quite a bit and other than a few on Rennlist, I don't find many available track prepped 944's. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. (mostly autotrader, cars.com).
12-29-2007, 10:20 AM
#47
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This has been mentioned already but I thought I would reiterate that the labor costs for installing and maintaining a track car car be quite considerable. If you can manage yourself then it might make sense--assuming you have lots of free time to tinker in the garage.
12-29-2007, 11:05 AM
#48
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did you do the work yourself. sounds way too cheap. i have a 98 e36m3, moton CS, K1 kosei, 1/2 cage, recaro seats, rear sub frame reinforcement, LSD, oil cooler, aux fan, basically 1/2 of what your car sounds like... $50k easy. i had a shop do the work and the shop is actually cheaper than most.
I gutted the car and had Bimmerworld do the suspension, diff, roll bar, seats etc. I am very pleased with the work and the price was
One $$ saving was brake cooling and running stock brakes which work fine with the weight out of the car, though 30003's is not light.I contemplated doing my GT3 for track and Juha needs to remember that a 996 GT3 needs $$$$$ to make it a true track animal, springs, Motons, Motorsports control arms, seats, roll bar etc which I would bet adds $20,000+ to the GT3 making it close to a $100,000 car.
Peter
12-29-2007, 11:46 AM
#49
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Mooty,
I gutted the car and had Bimmerworld do the suspension, diff, roll bar, seats etc. I am very pleased with the work and the price was One $$ saving was brake cooling and running stock brakes which work fine with the weight out of the car, though 30003's is not light.
I contemplated doing my GT3 for track and Juha needs to remember that a 996 GT3 needs $$$$$ to make it a true track animal, springs, Motons, Motorsports control arms, seats, roll bar etc which I would bet adds $20,000+ to the GT3 making it close to a $100,000 car.
Peter
I gutted the car and had Bimmerworld do the suspension, diff, roll bar, seats etc. I am very pleased with the work and the price was
One $$ saving was brake cooling and running stock brakes which work fine with the weight out of the car, though 30003's is not light.I contemplated doing my GT3 for track and Juha needs to remember that a 996 GT3 needs $$$$$ to make it a true track animal, springs, Motons, Motorsports control arms, seats, roll bar etc which I would bet adds $20,000+ to the GT3 making it close to a $100,000 car.
Peter
12-29-2007, 11:47 AM
#50
They're actually pretty easy to find. Rennlist classifieds, PCA classifieds, your local PCA region classifieds, Club Racing News (which someone you know who races in PCA can provide) etc etc. Ask at your local race shop. If you can attend some races, like PCA's club race at Sebring in February, for example, you'll more likely than not find cars there for sale. At DEs, you'll see cars for sale.
Try to buy from someone you know, or a car you know something about (like lap times which are easy to find in PCA race results), and is recommended by a professional.
I personally think the 911 is hard to beat. Something in the '79-'88 range. Extremely durable. Great platform. Great car to learn on. The 964 is also great, but generally a bit more money.
Good luck.
Try to buy from someone you know, or a car you know something about (like lap times which are easy to find in PCA race results), and is recommended by a professional.
I personally think the 911 is hard to beat. Something in the '79-'88 range. Extremely durable. Great platform. Great car to learn on. The 964 is also great, but generally a bit more money.
Good luck.
12-29-2007, 12:22 PM
#51
Three Wheelin'
You might be able to get a cup car for around $100k, but the associated costs add up quickly. From what I hear they are very expensive to keep running in top form. Something else to consider would be a "baby cup" built by a racing shop like synergy. I would post a link to their site, but it's getting revamped. To sum it up, it's a car (new 997 C2) will all the bells and whistles, but with a more "reliable" engine, the stock one. So you don't have the high-maintenance costs associated to the cup engine.
12-29-2007, 06:22 PM
#52
Three Wheelin'
An E46M3 is a very capable track car especially if it is converted into a race type car by Turner (say around 2,900lbs). By the time Tuner sets up the car it is very close to a GT3 in terms of performance and feel especially in the right hands. I see a few of these types of cars at Lime Rock Park on a regular basis and they turn 1:01's consistently in DE's. Of course, you are talking a full renevation such as removing installation, re-enforcement, suspension, cats, exaust, brakes, full cage, etc..
12-29-2007, 06:43 PM
#53
Can you direct me in how to find all these cars? I'm looking to go to a track prepped 944. I have been searching quite a bit and other than a few on Rennlist, I don't find many available track prepped 944's. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. (mostly autotrader, cars.com).
including my S2
12-29-2007, 08:15 PM
#54
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You might be able to get a cup car for around $100k, but the associated costs add up quickly. From what I hear they are very expensive to keep running in top form. Something else to consider would be a "baby cup" built by a racing shop like synergy. I would post a link to their site, but it's getting revamped. To sum it up, it's a car (new 997 C2) will all the bells and whistles, but with a more "reliable" engine, the stock one. So you don't have the high-maintenance costs associated to the cup engine.
Mike
12-29-2007, 09:10 PM
#55
Ironman 140.6
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I've been playing with the thought about selling the GT3 and picking up a ~20k E46 M3, stripping it and prepping it for track (DE use).
I know I would regret selling the GT3 for the rest of my life as there is no better car out there (well, as long as I bought one again).
But I REALLY love DE's and considering I'm still in the beginning of the learning curve, a $70k Porsche is not really the ideal "learning tool".
If I put the car into the wall (and I know I eventually may do that when I get to solo), It'd be a very big financial loss for me.
Destroying a $20k car is something I could live with but 70k is just a tad too much in my current financial situation. To put it short, I could not afford to get another 70k car for a while, whereas I could easily pick up another 20k car.
I don't like the idea of financing a car that I'm tracking so that option would be out of the question as well.
So, maybe I sell the GT3 and pick up a 2003-2004 M3, strip it completely, put in my club sport seats, put a cage in and harness + some good brakes and call it a day!?
I know it all boils down to my own priorities. Financially I can afford to keep and maintain the P-car but the thought about totaling it on the track is something I woulnd't wanna deal with...
Any thoughts? Would the M3 actually teach me better driving trough not being as good a performer as the GT3?
I know I would regret selling the GT3 for the rest of my life as there is no better car out there (well, as long as I bought one again).
But I REALLY love DE's and considering I'm still in the beginning of the learning curve, a $70k Porsche is not really the ideal "learning tool".
If I put the car into the wall (and I know I eventually may do that when I get to solo), It'd be a very big financial loss for me.
Destroying a $20k car is something I could live with but 70k is just a tad too much in my current financial situation. To put it short, I could not afford to get another 70k car for a while, whereas I could easily pick up another 20k car.
I don't like the idea of financing a car that I'm tracking so that option would be out of the question as well.
So, maybe I sell the GT3 and pick up a 2003-2004 M3, strip it completely, put in my club sport seats, put a cage in and harness + some good brakes and call it a day!?
I know it all boils down to my own priorities. Financially I can afford to keep and maintain the P-car but the thought about totaling it on the track is something I woulnd't wanna deal with...
Any thoughts? Would the M3 actually teach me better driving trough not being as good a performer as the GT3?
Keep the GT3 and get a NA 944 track car.
If your learn to be fast in the 944, you'll be smoking fast in your GT3.
12-29-2007, 10:05 PM
#56
Three Wheelin'
I've got an e36 m3 as well as the RS. Bought it as a track car for the ring and for my wife to use. I bought it pre-converted and its total upgrade cost including what I did since is 50k USD. It still needs stuff done and frankly I don't enjoy driving it as much as the 3. Its very hardcore to drive to circuit (especially the ring from the UK) as its basically a race car, and it harder work on track as everything is rose jointed (of which I destroyed 2 on crap belgium roads) and very stiff. For my purposes as a dedicated ring car and as my 2nd car its perfect. I wouldn't swap the RS for it though if it came down to one or the other and I'm very glad it wasn't my 50k USD that went into building it!
To build a proper race/track car is very very expensive and arguably not as much fun for DE/trackdays.
To build a proper race/track car is very very expensive and arguably not as much fun for DE/trackdays.
12-29-2007, 11:30 PM
#57
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You might be able to get a cup car for around $100k, but the associated costs add up quickly. From what I hear they are very expensive to keep running in top form. Something else to consider would be a "baby cup" built by a racing shop like synergy. I would post a link to their site, but it's getting revamped. To sum it up, it's a car (new 997 C2) will all the bells and whistles, but with a more "reliable" engine, the stock one. So you don't have the high-maintenance costs associated to the cup engine.
since the whole reason of this thread was to reduce cost a bit, perhaps baby 996 cup? you 2002 and later 996 X51 then, synergize it.... i am just thinking out loud here.
12-29-2007, 11:36 PM
#58
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Mooty,
I gutted the car and had Bimmerworld do the suspension, diff, roll bar, seats etc. I am very pleased with the work and the price was One $$ saving was brake cooling and running stock brakes which work fine with the weight out of the car, though 30003's is not light.
I contemplated doing my GT3 for track and Juha needs to remember that a 996 GT3 needs $$$$$ to make it a true track animal, springs, Motons, Motorsports control arms, seats, roll bar etc which I would bet adds $20,000+ to the GT3 making it close to a $100,000 car.
Peter
I gutted the car and had Bimmerworld do the suspension, diff, roll bar, seats etc. I am very pleased with the work and the price was
One $$ saving was brake cooling and running stock brakes which work fine with the weight out of the car, though 30003's is not light.I contemplated doing my GT3 for track and Juha needs to remember that a 996 GT3 needs $$$$$ to make it a true track animal, springs, Motons, Motorsports control arms, seats, roll bar etc which I would bet adds $20,000+ to the GT3 making it close to a $100,000 car.
Peter
wow, you sure got a bargain on the m3.
i did have stoptech up front which added another 2k or so.
i dont think it's worth it to really track out a GT3. moton cs is fine, but stripping and all that.. makes no sense to GT3, maybe when they are $40k cars ;-)
add 20k to GT3 is piece of cake. i have done it in the past.
moton cs with proper drop link and upper monoball, after tax and labor with alignment =7k
recaro pro racer hans XL x2 with sliders/brackets, labor and tax: 4k
roll bar, labor and tax and powder coated nicely: 2500
one set of track wheels: 3k
harness x2, fire bottle.... 1000
one set of tires/pads: 2000
there, almost 20k, and not much mod on it really....
now WHY did i have to remind myself of all this $$$
12-30-2007, 01:10 PM
#59
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I've gone done the track only car route. A potential issue is that you might be left with a "regular" daily driver and a track car. If your daily driver is an M5 then it's not a big issue, but if it is a SUV then it can get quite depressing :-) In his current situation the GT3 is both a track car and a car that can be driven on the street. I guess if you do 7 - 10+ DE events then a track only toy might make more sense. If it is less then the GT3 might make more sense. Like others have mentioned just pick your tracks wisely or drive comfortably within your limits on those turns with walls, armco, etc.
12-30-2007, 01:48 PM
#60
Race Car
Rob and Dan have it right when it comes to an E46 M3. YOu will need to put an extra $10k minimum in a M3 to add the track only bits you mentioned above. So you then start having to look at writing off a $30K car instead of a $20k car. My thoughts on this are why not get a cheaper car to begin with for DEs. This is what I did for my DE car. I have a 1995 E36 325 coupe that is stripped with nothing but 2 seats in the front. The suspension is pretty basic with a set of Ground Control coilovers and PowerFlex bushings. The drivetrain is stock until something goes on it. When that happens I will replace with one out of a M3. The brakes are PFC 01 pads with stock calipers and rotors. The wheels and tires are SSR Comps with Toyo RA-1s. This keeps my tire cost down to a minimum. This car is slower than the GT3 on the track but is like driving a go cart out there. It handles well, is reliable, and if something happens to it I am not out that much money. It isn't the best looking track car (it is black with all the paint intact and no dents or dings in the bodywork) but it really doesn't matter as I don't have that much money in the car. Oh I forgot to mention that at this point in the game I only have $4.5K in it.
What makes this car so fun to drive on the track is that I can focus on actually driving it without worry of any kind of incident. I don't mind if a rock hits it or get chips in the paint. I don't have to really worry about that much going wrong with it. Another advantage to this car is the cornering speeds are very similar to what the GT3 will do but when you come out of the turn the power isn't there like in the GT3. This helps me to focus on the importance of speed conservation all the way through the turn. Driving this car also helps me to demonstrate to my students or guys I am coaching the techniques I am talking to them about.
Now I do still drive the GT3 on the track when I get a chance. I still enjoy taking it out to Road Atlanta for lap or two. The track is the environment the GT3 is supposed to be exposed to so I definitely want to make it feel at home. The only reason I don't drive it as my only track car is simply I like driving mine on the street too and I get lazy when it comes to doing the maintenance on it.
What makes this car so fun to drive on the track is that I can focus on actually driving it without worry of any kind of incident. I don't mind if a rock hits it or get chips in the paint. I don't have to really worry about that much going wrong with it. Another advantage to this car is the cornering speeds are very similar to what the GT3 will do but when you come out of the turn the power isn't there like in the GT3. This helps me to focus on the importance of speed conservation all the way through the turn. Driving this car also helps me to demonstrate to my students or guys I am coaching the techniques I am talking to them about.
Now I do still drive the GT3 on the track when I get a chance. I still enjoy taking it out to Road Atlanta for lap or two. The track is the environment the GT3 is supposed to be exposed to so I definitely want to make it feel at home. The only reason I don't drive it as my only track car is simply I like driving mine on the street too and I get lazy when it comes to doing the maintenance on it.
The more and more I track the more and more I feel as though I need a dedicated track car. But if I were to do it that way it'd probably be a 325 pretty close to how Seth's car is setup. Then when I feel the need to go faster I'll upgrade to a S52 or S54 and continue learning.
There's a guy locally with a 325 that is every bit as fast as my C2 through the corners and on a momentum track we run very similar times. However if one of us had to write off a car the finaical risk is substantially different between the two of us. I have a hard enough time thinking about writing off my E46 M3 or my 996 C2... which has kept me from purchasing a GT3 to this point.
Andy