M3 vs. GT3
07-14-2006, 03:02 PM
#31
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Mooty,
You've got the right sales guy. In fact I considered an Elise, but could not bring myself to spend $50K on a poorly built car regardless of how well it handles.
There must be something about the GT3 that seduces a man. I've never liked the way Porsches looked, but this one keeps calling me back to it, I can't stop thinking about one.
You've got the right sales guy. In fact I considered an Elise, but could not bring myself to spend $50K on a poorly built car regardless of how well it handles.
There must be something about the GT3 that seduces a man. I've never liked the way Porsches looked, but this one keeps calling me back to it, I can't stop thinking about one.
07-14-2006, 10:43 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by boqueron
At my piloting school, the best GT3 time is 1' 52 ", the best M3 time is 1'59" ( 7 seconds (!!) and 15 cars behind...). The M3 DISAPPEARS on a track against a GT3. BTW, the GT3 is the FASTEST car at that precise track ( Ferraris included..). On the road, I will allways take an M3 ( far more comfortable car ).
Oh, I love BMW's ! I own a 528 , together with a GT3, and had an M5 for ...8 years...
Oh, I love BMW's ! I own a 528 , together with a GT3, and had an M5 for ...8 years...
07-15-2006, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by M3Pete
Mooty,
You've got the right sales guy. In fact I considered an Elise, but could not bring myself to spend $50K on a poorly built car regardless of how well it handles.
There must be something about the GT3 that seduces a man. I've never liked the way Porsches looked, but this one keeps calling me back to it, I can't stop thinking about one.
You've got the right sales guy. In fact I considered an Elise, but could not bring myself to spend $50K on a poorly built car regardless of how well it handles.
There must be something about the GT3 that seduces a man. I've never liked the way Porsches looked, but this one keeps calling me back to it, I can't stop thinking about one.
Test drive a 997S X51 before you plunk down the change on the GT3.
07-15-2006, 12:51 AM
#34
M3 v. 1992 911 Turbo
I have a different experience, with a similar outcome.
I went from a 1999 996 to a 2001 M3 with manual gearbox. I owned both for several months, deciding which to keep as my daily driver. I'm a PCA certified driving instructor, an advanced instructor in a couple of PCA regions, and a 13 year racer, and here's my opinion:
M3's strengths were acceleration and usable space (rear seats folded down, so one could drive this car while working for a carnival and carrying elephant stools). Acceleration was stronger than the 996, at least to 60 or so.
M3's weaknesses were: Manual 6 Speed!!! It was a POS, and after driving for 6 months I even did the best short shifter, and it still was a notchy, flawed POS. Never could find the right gear consistently. Another weakness was the power steering rack--I had that in for service 3 or 4 times, including replacing it twice with a new one. The second new replacement finally solved the problem.
996's strengths were: (1) Handling through turns. The M3 never felt nearly as glued in the turns. (2) Second attribute was the wonderful 6 speed shifter, buttery and precise, both at the same time. And the cabin space, though less usable, was more sophisticated, IMHO.
996 Negatives were: just two. First, it was the hardest car to start without stalling I ever have drivern. The clutch takeup was either prone to slipping or to stalling, very small middle ground. Compared to most cars where I stall once or twice a month, the 996 I stalled at stoplights almost daily.
Second, the 996 was not as good on acceleration as the M3. Maybe the 35 hp difference was to blame, maybe the fact that the M3 had significantly shorter gearing. All I know is that the M3 accerated from a stop more quickly and surely.
And the winner is......
Neither of them.
I sold the 996, and drove the M3 for a couple of years until I got really tired of the shifter (storage space was nice, though). Then I bought a 1992 911 Turbo S2, with big power (solved the 996 problem!) and proper feel through turns (bye bye M3) and a great shifter in the 1992 Porsche (bye M3 again!).
I know, the rear wheel drive turbos were supposed to be scary. Nevertheless, I liked it and sold the M3 about a year ago, still driving the 1992 Turbo. There is nothing in the BMW catalogue that will interest me much.
Just one datapoint. But heartfelt.
I went from a 1999 996 to a 2001 M3 with manual gearbox. I owned both for several months, deciding which to keep as my daily driver. I'm a PCA certified driving instructor, an advanced instructor in a couple of PCA regions, and a 13 year racer, and here's my opinion:
M3's strengths were acceleration and usable space (rear seats folded down, so one could drive this car while working for a carnival and carrying elephant stools). Acceleration was stronger than the 996, at least to 60 or so.
M3's weaknesses were: Manual 6 Speed!!! It was a POS, and after driving for 6 months I even did the best short shifter, and it still was a notchy, flawed POS. Never could find the right gear consistently. Another weakness was the power steering rack--I had that in for service 3 or 4 times, including replacing it twice with a new one. The second new replacement finally solved the problem.
996's strengths were: (1) Handling through turns. The M3 never felt nearly as glued in the turns. (2) Second attribute was the wonderful 6 speed shifter, buttery and precise, both at the same time. And the cabin space, though less usable, was more sophisticated, IMHO.
996 Negatives were: just two. First, it was the hardest car to start without stalling I ever have drivern. The clutch takeup was either prone to slipping or to stalling, very small middle ground. Compared to most cars where I stall once or twice a month, the 996 I stalled at stoplights almost daily.
Second, the 996 was not as good on acceleration as the M3. Maybe the 35 hp difference was to blame, maybe the fact that the M3 had significantly shorter gearing. All I know is that the M3 accerated from a stop more quickly and surely.
And the winner is......
Neither of them.
I sold the 996, and drove the M3 for a couple of years until I got really tired of the shifter (storage space was nice, though). Then I bought a 1992 911 Turbo S2, with big power (solved the 996 problem!) and proper feel through turns (bye bye M3) and a great shifter in the 1992 Porsche (bye M3 again!).
I know, the rear wheel drive turbos were supposed to be scary. Nevertheless, I liked it and sold the M3 about a year ago, still driving the 1992 Turbo. There is nothing in the BMW catalogue that will interest me much.
Just one datapoint. But heartfelt.
07-15-2006, 01:03 AM
#35
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M3 Pete,
I think the 997 GT3 will be a better car with some added street comfort (and yes a sunroof) and it will equal the 996 GT3 on the track. So for $106K you get a lot of car. But unless you have a deposit and a good relationship with your dealer, you won't see a car for a year or so unless you pay over sticker.
You can buy a nice 996 GT3 with good upgrades (roll bar, RS wing, Euro seats etc.) in the low to mid $80K range. And with the $25K you save you can add Moton club sport shocks and improve the ride (it will be better, but not great). Now you still have $20K in the bank and there is no waiting and one of the all time great Porsche's will be your daily driver.
Since you are here in S.Calif. you can find a nice car at the right price and you can avoid the wait for the 997 GT3 and/or dealer mark. So I would say get on the waiting list for the 997 GT3, sell the M3 now (before the new M3 comes out and the value takes an additional hit) and get a 996 GT3. You will never be disappointed with that decision and in 2-3 years get a used 997 GT3 off someone who had to have it first but never drove it or when you name comes up take a test drive and if that is a better choice for you get the 997 then.
Good luck with your decision.
I think the 997 GT3 will be a better car with some added street comfort (and yes a sunroof) and it will equal the 996 GT3 on the track. So for $106K you get a lot of car. But unless you have a deposit and a good relationship with your dealer, you won't see a car for a year or so unless you pay over sticker.
You can buy a nice 996 GT3 with good upgrades (roll bar, RS wing, Euro seats etc.) in the low to mid $80K range. And with the $25K you save you can add Moton club sport shocks and improve the ride (it will be better, but not great). Now you still have $20K in the bank and there is no waiting and one of the all time great Porsche's will be your daily driver.
Since you are here in S.Calif. you can find a nice car at the right price and you can avoid the wait for the 997 GT3 and/or dealer mark. So I would say get on the waiting list for the 997 GT3, sell the M3 now (before the new M3 comes out and the value takes an additional hit) and get a 996 GT3. You will never be disappointed with that decision and in 2-3 years get a used 997 GT3 off someone who had to have it first but never drove it or when you name comes up take a test drive and if that is a better choice for you get the 997 then.
Good luck with your decision.
07-15-2006, 03:17 AM
#36
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What would you expect? M3 gives away 500 lbs and 40-50HP to the GT3 and rides on much worse rubber.
Bora, thanks for the explanation.
I thought it only a question of luck... 
BTW, there are several turbos S and the nearest to the GT3 is ....4 seconds away...
07-15-2006, 03:46 AM
#37
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Originally Posted by M3Pete
Mooty,
You've got the right sales guy. In fact I considered an Elise, but could not bring myself to spend $50K on a poorly built car regardless of how well it handles.
There must be something about the GT3 that seduces a man. I've never liked the way Porsches looked, but this one keeps calling me back to it, I can't stop thinking about one.
You've got the right sales guy. In fact I considered an Elise, but could not bring myself to spend $50K on a poorly built car regardless of how well it handles.
There must be something about the GT3 that seduces a man. I've never liked the way Porsches looked, but this one keeps calling me back to it, I can't stop thinking about one.
07-15-2006, 05:46 AM
#38
Intermediate
If it's not a daily driver- get the 996GT3. You don't need the refinement, and trust me, the lack of which will only add to the experience when you take it out on weekends/track days/special occasions. 'Cos I've gone from one to another; I can look back using hindsight and say it was a total no brainer! You won't regret it!
07-15-2006, 12:09 PM
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Strange,
I feel exactly the opposite about the tranny in my 04 M3 versus
my 05 GT3.
I wonder what BMW changed between 01 and 04 model years.
I know they changed the transmission oil from LT1 to LT2 which made a huge difference in the shift feel.
As far as short shifters are concerned, I don't like them. I think they cause more problems than they fix.
Anyhow, this is an Apples/Oranges comparison. If we could have had the M3 CSL here, maybe then a more appropriate comparison could be made.
I feel exactly the opposite about the tranny in my 04 M3 versus
my 05 GT3.
I wonder what BMW changed between 01 and 04 model years.
I know they changed the transmission oil from LT1 to LT2 which made a huge difference in the shift feel.
As far as short shifters are concerned, I don't like them. I think they cause more problems than they fix.
Anyhow, this is an Apples/Oranges comparison. If we could have had the M3 CSL here, maybe then a more appropriate comparison could be made.
Originally Posted by lwilkins
I have a different experience, with a similar outcome.
I went from a 1999 996 to a 2001 M3 with manual gearbox. I owned both for several months, deciding which to keep as my daily driver. I'm a PCA certified driving instructor, an advanced instructor in a couple of PCA regions, and a 13 year racer, and here's my opinion:
M3's strengths were acceleration and usable space (rear seats folded down, so one could drive this car while working for a carnival and carrying elephant stools). Acceleration was stronger than the 996, at least to 60 or so.
M3's weaknesses were: Manual 6 Speed!!! It was a POS, and after driving for 6 months I even did the best short shifter, and it still was a notchy, flawed POS. Never could find the right gear consistently. Another weakness was the power steering rack--I had that in for service 3 or 4 times, including replacing it twice with a new one. The second new replacement finally solved the problem.
996's strengths were: (1) Handling through turns. The M3 never felt nearly as glued in the turns. (2) Second attribute was the wonderful 6 speed shifter, buttery and precise, both at the same time. And the cabin space, though less usable, was more sophisticated, IMHO.
996 Negatives were: just two. First, it was the hardest car to start without stalling I ever have drivern. The clutch takeup was either prone to slipping or to stalling, very small middle ground. Compared to most cars where I stall once or twice a month, the 996 I stalled at stoplights almost daily.
Second, the 996 was not as good on acceleration as the M3. Maybe the 35 hp difference was to blame, maybe the fact that the M3 had significantly shorter gearing. All I know is that the M3 accerated from a stop more quickly and surely.
And the winner is......
Neither of them.
I sold the 996, and drove the M3 for a couple of years until I got really tired of the shifter (storage space was nice, though). Then I bought a 1992 911 Turbo S2, with big power (solved the 996 problem!) and proper feel through turns (bye bye M3) and a great shifter in the 1992 Porsche (bye M3 again!).
I know, the rear wheel drive turbos were supposed to be scary. Nevertheless, I liked it and sold the M3 about a year ago, still driving the 1992 Turbo. There is nothing in the BMW catalogue that will interest me much.
Just one datapoint. But heartfelt.
I went from a 1999 996 to a 2001 M3 with manual gearbox. I owned both for several months, deciding which to keep as my daily driver. I'm a PCA certified driving instructor, an advanced instructor in a couple of PCA regions, and a 13 year racer, and here's my opinion:
M3's strengths were acceleration and usable space (rear seats folded down, so one could drive this car while working for a carnival and carrying elephant stools). Acceleration was stronger than the 996, at least to 60 or so.
M3's weaknesses were: Manual 6 Speed!!! It was a POS, and after driving for 6 months I even did the best short shifter, and it still was a notchy, flawed POS. Never could find the right gear consistently. Another weakness was the power steering rack--I had that in for service 3 or 4 times, including replacing it twice with a new one. The second new replacement finally solved the problem.
996's strengths were: (1) Handling through turns. The M3 never felt nearly as glued in the turns. (2) Second attribute was the wonderful 6 speed shifter, buttery and precise, both at the same time. And the cabin space, though less usable, was more sophisticated, IMHO.
996 Negatives were: just two. First, it was the hardest car to start without stalling I ever have drivern. The clutch takeup was either prone to slipping or to stalling, very small middle ground. Compared to most cars where I stall once or twice a month, the 996 I stalled at stoplights almost daily.
Second, the 996 was not as good on acceleration as the M3. Maybe the 35 hp difference was to blame, maybe the fact that the M3 had significantly shorter gearing. All I know is that the M3 accerated from a stop more quickly and surely.
And the winner is......
Neither of them.
I sold the 996, and drove the M3 for a couple of years until I got really tired of the shifter (storage space was nice, though). Then I bought a 1992 911 Turbo S2, with big power (solved the 996 problem!) and proper feel through turns (bye bye M3) and a great shifter in the 1992 Porsche (bye M3 again!).
I know, the rear wheel drive turbos were supposed to be scary. Nevertheless, I liked it and sold the M3 about a year ago, still driving the 1992 Turbo. There is nothing in the BMW catalogue that will interest me much.
Just one datapoint. But heartfelt.
07-15-2006, 12:13 PM
#40
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I've pretty much got my eye on 2 used 996gt3's in this area. One is CPO and give the piece of mind of an extended warrenty, one still has 2 years left on original warrenty. Now this may open up a huge debate, but the CPO has very little options, which is okay, I want the driving experience, with the standard brakes. The other has ceramics. Price is almost the same. How long do the PCCBs last? The car with ceramics has about 12K miles. I do about 8-10 track days a year and 5-6 autocrosses per year. I take it pretty easy on the street. My friend who let me drive his 996gt3 at Buttowwillow said he would never get the PCCB because it is too expensive when you need to replace them. How much and how often do they need to be changed given the amount of track time I've described? Approximately?
07-15-2006, 03:50 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
I wouldn't worry about the ceramics. They will most likely wear out if you choose to keep them fitted, but the OEM steels aren't exactly long lasting either, so in the end you'll probably arrive at the same outcome - to buy Alcons or Brembo disks which last maybe 20-30 track days (OEMS steels last about 5). My ceramics are boxed and I've got Alcons all round. I'm really happy with them and no signs of wear after 3 trackdays.
07-15-2006, 07:30 PM
#42
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Get the car without the ceramics if you do track days. Otherwise you will be changing out the rotors to steel.
JCM
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07-16-2006, 11:29 AM
#43
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Can you help me out? Being a life long BMW guy, I'm up to speed with what their abbreviations mean. What is mk1 vs. mk2? Are the ceramics compatible with steel and vis versa or are they completely different systems (i.e. calipers, etc.) if one purchases one type but goes to the other.
07-17-2006, 01:10 AM
#44
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M3 Pete,
MK1 were the first round of GT3's and they were not sold in the USA. Mk2 production began in2004 and included all USA Vin GT3's. So any US car you look at will be a Mk2.
There are conversion packages for steel rotors on cars that came with Ceramics. The ceramic discs are very expensive, so it will make sense to take them off if you are going to do track days and replace them with steel. There are a lot of threads on this topic including what brake pads to use with Ceramics if you do keep them on and go to the track. Front rotors are a direct swap (ceramic for steel). Rears need a conversion kit to work.
Tim at Mind over Motorsport in Miramar can help you with all your questions and may have some customer cars you could look to buy.
Good luck with your decision.
JCM
MK1 were the first round of GT3's and they were not sold in the USA. Mk2 production began in2004 and included all USA Vin GT3's. So any US car you look at will be a Mk2.
There are conversion packages for steel rotors on cars that came with Ceramics. The ceramic discs are very expensive, so it will make sense to take them off if you are going to do track days and replace them with steel. There are a lot of threads on this topic including what brake pads to use with Ceramics if you do keep them on and go to the track. Front rotors are a direct swap (ceramic for steel). Rears need a conversion kit to work.
Tim at Mind over Motorsport in Miramar can help you with all your questions and may have some customer cars you could look to buy.
Good luck with your decision.
JCM
07-18-2006, 06:51 PM
#45
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Hi M3 Pete,
Seems we've moved the same direction. I started in an E30M3, then M Coupe, E36 M3 track car, E46 M3 (manual), And GT3 2yrs ago. Won't give any technical opinion. The guys in this forum are of great support, and I agree with 95% of what I read here. All I can say,it's been great and I have no desire for any other car yet, not 997, not anything. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE. Good luck to you!
Seems we've moved the same direction. I started in an E30M3, then M Coupe, E36 M3 track car, E46 M3 (manual), And GT3 2yrs ago. Won't give any technical opinion. The guys in this forum are of great support, and I agree with 95% of what I read here. All I can say,it's been great and I have no desire for any other car yet, not 997, not anything. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE. Good luck to you!
