Driving a GT2 vs. GT3
10-07-2005, 04:02 AM
#31
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There is some resistance from the shocks. A 300 lbs/in spring with a 2" travel (different than actual spring length) will compress fully with 600 lbs on top as long as there is no shock present.
My car rear tenders (Eibach 225/225/250) don't compress entirely with the car sitting on its weight. These tenders have 2.25" of travel, they're almost 4" long and they have a rate of 250lbs/in. They will compress fully with 562 lbs on top as long as the shocks are not there. My car has around 875 lbs on top of each rear wheel.
The tenders make the car ride softer on the streets, when they're not fully compressed on stationary weight. On a track only car I would prefer to use longer main springs and no tenders, but that would increase my dental bills if driven on streets.
My car rear tenders (Eibach 225/225/250) don't compress entirely with the car sitting on its weight. These tenders have 2.25" of travel, they're almost 4" long and they have a rate of 250lbs/in. They will compress fully with 562 lbs on top as long as the shocks are not there. My car has around 875 lbs on top of each rear wheel.
The tenders make the car ride softer on the streets, when they're not fully compressed on stationary weight. On a track only car I would prefer to use longer main springs and no tenders, but that would increase my dental bills if driven on streets.
10-07-2005, 02:45 PM
#32
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Guys, I owned both for a while. I sold my GT2 recently to a friend who tracks it as avidly as I did. Comparing the two, the GT2 feels heavier and larger. While the weight difference between a GT2 and a GT3 is not that great, the softer suspension of the GT2 gives that impression.
The GT2 is not the demon machine its made out to be. I was comfortable with it from day one on the track. On the other hand driving it nearer its limits (and mine) took a whole track season. The rush of torque above 4000 RPM is not only intoxicating it's also a challenge to handle. On the same track, my GT2 (in my hands) was 4 seconds a lap faster than the GT3. Both cars were set up the same way, including tires. The '3' is easier to drive and feels more "tossable". The linear power band inspires confidence and it is easier to drive closer to the limit than the '2'. With practice the 2 is perfectly manageable but you MUST take your smoothness pill first. As someone else observed, you also need the confidence and experience to load the suspension up to exploit its full potential.
I'm saddened by the fact that Porsche mismanaged the GT2. It is a true Super-Car. By all means take advantage of the poor resale value ..; I've sworn to never buy another 'overpriced exotic' from Porsche again.
Finally the new owner - who is a better driver than I am, turns laps which are equivalent to a Ferrari Challenge Race car (except his). For a car with all the luxuries and without benefit of slicks, that says a lot about the potential of the car in the right hands. The suspension is stock by the way. Would a better suspension make the car better for track? Sure. On the other hand short of a Cup Car on slicks (and not even all of those!) there isn't much on a track that is going to catch a well driven GT2 on R compounds. As I said, it is truly a Super-Car.
Rgds,
The GT2 is not the demon machine its made out to be. I was comfortable with it from day one on the track. On the other hand driving it nearer its limits (and mine) took a whole track season. The rush of torque above 4000 RPM is not only intoxicating it's also a challenge to handle. On the same track, my GT2 (in my hands) was 4 seconds a lap faster than the GT3. Both cars were set up the same way, including tires. The '3' is easier to drive and feels more "tossable". The linear power band inspires confidence and it is easier to drive closer to the limit than the '2'. With practice the 2 is perfectly manageable but you MUST take your smoothness pill first. As someone else observed, you also need the confidence and experience to load the suspension up to exploit its full potential.
I'm saddened by the fact that Porsche mismanaged the GT2. It is a true Super-Car. By all means take advantage of the poor resale value ..; I've sworn to never buy another 'overpriced exotic' from Porsche again.
Finally the new owner - who is a better driver than I am, turns laps which are equivalent to a Ferrari Challenge Race car (except his). For a car with all the luxuries and without benefit of slicks, that says a lot about the potential of the car in the right hands. The suspension is stock by the way. Would a better suspension make the car better for track? Sure. On the other hand short of a Cup Car on slicks (and not even all of those!) there isn't much on a track that is going to catch a well driven GT2 on R compounds. As I said, it is truly a Super-Car.
Rgds,
10-07-2005, 04:11 PM
#33
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by supercup
Z06,
I have a 2003 GT2 and have modified it to some degree. When I first got the car I changed to a much more aggressive alignment setting [-2.5D camber, front Toe +10 min, rear toe +34 min, caster stock] and adjusted the ride height to the lower end of the factory recommended settings. I ran the bars one off full stiff. I found the car had excellent handling on the track but was very nerveous on the street. The ride on the street was pretty poor with the spring and struts fighting each other. Cr was very harsh on the road.
I found at the track that I would cord the outside edge of the left rear tire in 120 +/- track miles (Willow Springs). Clearly the car was undersprung from the factory. I did some research with some race shops and found everyone agreed and a solution set up was pretty common.
The factory springs are like 350 lb front and 550 ;b rear. Common practice appear to be 600 lb front and 800 lb rear. I upgraded to Moton CS with 6" 600 pound front springs with 300 lb 2.25" helper springs and 8" 800 lb spring rear with 300 lb 2.25" helper springs. Shock canister pressures of 160/180 front and rear for street and 200/225 for the track. The handling of the car is significantly improved, but even better is the ride quality is also significantly improved on the street. Overall a win all around. some go slightly stiffer on the springs, but no one was less than 550/750 as a combination.
I have not had a chance to take it to the track yet to do a back to back, but I imagine it will show up a few seconds a lap quicker with the new set up. More importantly I will be able to keep a left rear tire on the car.
I think the suspension evolved on the GT2 and the 2004 GT2 has some different parts in the rear from 2002 and 2003. A well set up GT2 is a lot of fun to drive, but will never allow you to mash the gas and go like you can in a GT3. You have to be smooth to be fast, that is why I love the car so much, it is a very challenging car to drive.
Other mods to my car include GIAC controller, Europipe stage II quiet, Moton CS, springs, GMG roll bar, Schroth harness, Baily's diverter valves, 2004 GT2 wheels, steel brake rotors.
Get the car set up right up the spring rates and your friend will love the car!
I have a 2003 GT2 and have modified it to some degree. When I first got the car I changed to a much more aggressive alignment setting [-2.5D camber, front Toe +10 min, rear toe +34 min, caster stock] and adjusted the ride height to the lower end of the factory recommended settings. I ran the bars one off full stiff. I found the car had excellent handling on the track but was very nerveous on the street. The ride on the street was pretty poor with the spring and struts fighting each other. Cr was very harsh on the road.
I found at the track that I would cord the outside edge of the left rear tire in 120 +/- track miles (Willow Springs). Clearly the car was undersprung from the factory. I did some research with some race shops and found everyone agreed and a solution set up was pretty common.
The factory springs are like 350 lb front and 550 ;b rear. Common practice appear to be 600 lb front and 800 lb rear. I upgraded to Moton CS with 6" 600 pound front springs with 300 lb 2.25" helper springs and 8" 800 lb spring rear with 300 lb 2.25" helper springs. Shock canister pressures of 160/180 front and rear for street and 200/225 for the track. The handling of the car is significantly improved, but even better is the ride quality is also significantly improved on the street. Overall a win all around. some go slightly stiffer on the springs, but no one was less than 550/750 as a combination.
I have not had a chance to take it to the track yet to do a back to back, but I imagine it will show up a few seconds a lap quicker with the new set up. More importantly I will be able to keep a left rear tire on the car.
I think the suspension evolved on the GT2 and the 2004 GT2 has some different parts in the rear from 2002 and 2003. A well set up GT2 is a lot of fun to drive, but will never allow you to mash the gas and go like you can in a GT3. You have to be smooth to be fast, that is why I love the car so much, it is a very challenging car to drive.
Other mods to my car include GIAC controller, Europipe stage II quiet, Moton CS, springs, GMG roll bar, Schroth harness, Baily's diverter valves, 2004 GT2 wheels, steel brake rotors.
Get the car set up right up the spring rates and your friend will love the car!
He was quite impressed with the ride quality and handling...so am I actually, after driving his car, I believe he is going to do the shock change in the spring...he's not happy after just buying the car, to spend more money on mods....already.
What does the "Baily's diverter valves" do?
How does the exhaust sound? he does not want it to be loud.
What kind of power at the wheels do you expect with your mods?
Thanks for the reply...he's going a little crazy trying to figure the GT2 out..
it's good to get feed back from someone with first hand experience.
10-07-2005, 04:29 PM
#34
Most magazine I have read whether it be Excellence or GT both find the GT3 the better vehicle, on or off the track. The GT2 never inspires like the 3 does.
They both rate the GT2 not that far ahead of the lofty Turbo.
I do understand that the GT2 beat one of the GT3's (not sure if it was the 99GT3, 04GT3, or GT3RS) at the ring, but it only beat it by a second. To me it seems quite obvious from these magazine comparisons, and not Rag magazine comparisons like Road and Track or Car and Driver, but from these Porsche specific magazine articles that the GT3 is by far the better track AND that the GT2 is not $100,000 better on the track than the GT3, which it really should be.
Truly I believe that the only reason that some of us "mere mortals" have gained 2-4 seconds on a track with a GT2 vs a GT3 is b/c of the higher speeds in the straight you can gain (and basically anyone with a lead foot can gain) with a GT2 vs a GT3 just b/c of the power difference and not b/c we or he is a better driver. I highly doubt anyone of us are really improving lap times b/c we are carrying that much more speed in a turn with a GT2 than you would with a GT3 - you have to have a lot of ***** for that to happen.
They both rate the GT2 not that far ahead of the lofty Turbo.
I do understand that the GT2 beat one of the GT3's (not sure if it was the 99GT3, 04GT3, or GT3RS) at the ring, but it only beat it by a second. To me it seems quite obvious from these magazine comparisons, and not Rag magazine comparisons like Road and Track or Car and Driver, but from these Porsche specific magazine articles that the GT3 is by far the better track AND that the GT2 is not $100,000 better on the track than the GT3, which it really should be.
Truly I believe that the only reason that some of us "mere mortals" have gained 2-4 seconds on a track with a GT2 vs a GT3 is b/c of the higher speeds in the straight you can gain (and basically anyone with a lead foot can gain) with a GT2 vs a GT3 just b/c of the power difference and not b/c we or he is a better driver. I highly doubt anyone of us are really improving lap times b/c we are carrying that much more speed in a turn with a GT2 than you would with a GT3 - you have to have a lot of ***** for that to happen.
10-07-2005, 07:44 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by RR
Most magazine I have read whether it be Excellence or GT both find the GT3 the better vehicle, on or off the track. The GT2 never inspires like the 3 does.
They both rate the GT2 not that far ahead of the lofty Turbo.
I do understand that the GT2 beat one of the GT3's (not sure if it was the 99GT3, 04GT3, or GT3RS) at the ring, but it only beat it by a second. To me it seems quite obvious from these magazine comparisons, and not Rag magazine comparisons like Road and Track or Car and Driver, but from these Porsche specific magazine articles that the GT3 is by far the better track AND that the GT2 is not $100,000 better on the track than the GT3, which it really should be.
Truly I believe that the only reason that some of us "mere mortals" have gained 2-4 seconds on a track with a GT2 vs a GT3 is b/c of the higher speeds in the straight you can gain (and basically anyone with a lead foot can gain) with a GT2 vs a GT3 just b/c of the power difference and not b/c we or he is a better driver. I highly doubt anyone of us are really improving lap times b/c we are carrying that much more speed in a turn with a GT2 than you would with a GT3 - you have to have a lot of ***** for that to happen.
They both rate the GT2 not that far ahead of the lofty Turbo.
I do understand that the GT2 beat one of the GT3's (not sure if it was the 99GT3, 04GT3, or GT3RS) at the ring, but it only beat it by a second. To me it seems quite obvious from these magazine comparisons, and not Rag magazine comparisons like Road and Track or Car and Driver, but from these Porsche specific magazine articles that the GT3 is by far the better track AND that the GT2 is not $100,000 better on the track than the GT3, which it really should be.
Truly I believe that the only reason that some of us "mere mortals" have gained 2-4 seconds on a track with a GT2 vs a GT3 is b/c of the higher speeds in the straight you can gain (and basically anyone with a lead foot can gain) with a GT2 vs a GT3 just b/c of the power difference and not b/c we or he is a better driver. I highly doubt anyone of us are really improving lap times b/c we are carrying that much more speed in a turn with a GT2 than you would with a GT3 - you have to have a lot of ***** for that to happen.
There is no way a GT2 will pick up four seconds a lap, on the straights alone, therefore you're logic and reasoning is flawed.
There are a lot of "big mouths" and "big *****" and "big bling" out there, but not so many with "big skill". It 's the guys with "big skill" you ought to listen to; When guys like Bob Rouleau and Larry Herman post on their driving experiences..you'd do well to take note, they are putting their money and lives at risk.
Having said that, some of us "mere mortals" have been around the track a few times in each car, and the GT2 is far superior.
As for the GT2 only being slightly better than a TT, well let me tell you after a trip around the track in a GT2 (or GT3) the TT feels like a boat and pushes a lot.
Sorry if I appear to have unloaded on you, but readers come here looking for objective and informed opinions to help with their decisions. In fairness, you have have disclosed the basis for your opinions but your conclusions are just flat wrong (IMO).
I apologize in advance if I offend!
10-07-2005, 07:48 PM
#36
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Z06,
The stock diverter valves are know to fail on the turbo. The Bailey or several other aftermarket choices are a better part. The improve spool up time and hold boost better.
The Europipe Stage II quite is louder than stock, but quieter than some other exhausts. I would not recommend this change until he hears what it sounds like. My wife thought my car sounded great stock, now she thinks it is too loud. For the money I would do the GIAC controller before exhaust, a lot more bang forthe buck.
Don't have actual dyno results on my car - claims are 100 to 150 hp. I would say 100 is very likely. The change is significant.
I really think with no modification, just a real good alignment and corner balance he can make the car handle great and be very happy with it on or off the track.
Good luck.
JCM
The stock diverter valves are know to fail on the turbo. The Bailey or several other aftermarket choices are a better part. The improve spool up time and hold boost better.
The Europipe Stage II quite is louder than stock, but quieter than some other exhausts. I would not recommend this change until he hears what it sounds like. My wife thought my car sounded great stock, now she thinks it is too loud. For the money I would do the GIAC controller before exhaust, a lot more bang forthe buck.
Don't have actual dyno results on my car - claims are 100 to 150 hp. I would say 100 is very likely. The change is significant.
I really think with no modification, just a real good alignment and corner balance he can make the car handle great and be very happy with it on or off the track.
Good luck.
JCM
10-07-2005, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Colm
Having said that, some of us "mere mortals" have been around the track a few times in each car, and the GT2 is far superior.
10-07-2005, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Colm
I think if you spent more time behind the wheel and less reading magazines you might modify your opinion (Excellence is not an objective magazine, by the way)
There is no way a GT2 will pick up four seconds a lap, on the straights alone, therefore you're logic and reasoning is flawed.
There are a lot of "big mouths" and "big *****" and "big bling" out there, but not so many with "big skill". It 's the guys with "big skill" you ought to listen to; When guys like Bob Rouleau and Larry Herman post on their driving experiences..you'd do well to take note, they are putting their money and lives at risk.
Having said that, some of us "mere mortals" have been around the track a few times in each car, and the GT2 is far superior.
As for the GT2 only being slightly better than a TT, well let me tell you after a trip around the track in a GT2 (or GT3) the TT feels like a boat and pushes a lot.
Sorry if I appear to have unloaded on you, but readers come here looking for objective and informed opinions to help with their decisions. In fairness, you have have disclosed the basis for your opinions but your conclusions are just flat wrong (IMO).
I apologize in advance if I offend!
There is no way a GT2 will pick up four seconds a lap, on the straights alone, therefore you're logic and reasoning is flawed.
There are a lot of "big mouths" and "big *****" and "big bling" out there, but not so many with "big skill". It 's the guys with "big skill" you ought to listen to; When guys like Bob Rouleau and Larry Herman post on their driving experiences..you'd do well to take note, they are putting their money and lives at risk.
Having said that, some of us "mere mortals" have been around the track a few times in each car, and the GT2 is far superior.
As for the GT2 only being slightly better than a TT, well let me tell you after a trip around the track in a GT2 (or GT3) the TT feels like a boat and pushes a lot.
Sorry if I appear to have unloaded on you, but readers come here looking for objective and informed opinions to help with their decisions. In fairness, you have have disclosed the basis for your opinions but your conclusions are just flat wrong (IMO).
I apologize in advance if I offend!
10-08-2005, 02:18 PM
#40
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Chris,
I would have to say each has its own challange and they excite in a different way. Here are my thoughts on each.
The GT2 is heavier so it simply can't carry the same speed through the corners as the Cup car, so the Cup car is faster in absolute terms. The GT2 is very challanging (far more than the Cup car) to drive out of the corner. Getting the power down is a smooth fashion is critical, but when done correctly it is very rewarding. The GT2 also has so much power and torque that you can get the tail out in a turn (like turn 2 at Willow) and simply throttle steer all the way through the turn and their always seems to be enough grip to rocket the car out of the turn with just a slight reduction of the throttle. There is nothing like having a car sideways, on the power, for a good distance at 90 mph, having it regain maximum traction at the track out point and rocket towards the next turn.
The Cup car is 734 pounds lighter (based on last coner balance weights of each) and you simply can't translate that without experiencing one versus the other. You can brake later, carry substantially more speed through turn, it turns in quicker etc. Everything just happens faster. I think driving the GT2 and having to be very smooth to go fast and manage the power has actually helped me in the Cup car in corner exit. When I get in the Cup I am much more comfortable putting down more power sooner, because it just doesn't feel like it has all the much after the GT2.
Overall I would say I have not achieved 10/10's in either car but I would say it would be more of a challange to achieve it in the GT2 than the Cup because of how the power is delivered, how much of it there is and how much it weighs. If I could only have one I would keep the Cup car. So I guess that means it is more fun. But it is also a bigger commitment in terms of cost to operate, trailer etc. For the street I would have a GT2 versus a GT3 because the power advantage, even if you can't always use it, is so fun.
JCM
I would have to say each has its own challange and they excite in a different way. Here are my thoughts on each.
The GT2 is heavier so it simply can't carry the same speed through the corners as the Cup car, so the Cup car is faster in absolute terms. The GT2 is very challanging (far more than the Cup car) to drive out of the corner. Getting the power down is a smooth fashion is critical, but when done correctly it is very rewarding. The GT2 also has so much power and torque that you can get the tail out in a turn (like turn 2 at Willow) and simply throttle steer all the way through the turn and their always seems to be enough grip to rocket the car out of the turn with just a slight reduction of the throttle. There is nothing like having a car sideways, on the power, for a good distance at 90 mph, having it regain maximum traction at the track out point and rocket towards the next turn.
The Cup car is 734 pounds lighter (based on last coner balance weights of each) and you simply can't translate that without experiencing one versus the other. You can brake later, carry substantially more speed through turn, it turns in quicker etc. Everything just happens faster. I think driving the GT2 and having to be very smooth to go fast and manage the power has actually helped me in the Cup car in corner exit. When I get in the Cup I am much more comfortable putting down more power sooner, because it just doesn't feel like it has all the much after the GT2.
Overall I would say I have not achieved 10/10's in either car but I would say it would be more of a challange to achieve it in the GT2 than the Cup because of how the power is delivered, how much of it there is and how much it weighs. If I could only have one I would keep the Cup car. So I guess that means it is more fun. But it is also a bigger commitment in terms of cost to operate, trailer etc. For the street I would have a GT2 versus a GT3 because the power advantage, even if you can't always use it, is so fun.
JCM
10-08-2005, 02:47 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
Not sure there is a right answer to this. Mostly I see people trying to justify their purchases!
It find it interesting that in Europe GT2s aren't well regarded. I found it really hard to pick when buying my car as it was GT2 vs RS. I took the RS in the end and I've not regretted it. Mostly because I wanted NA over FI (previous car was a noble so fancied a change), and I thought I'd have more fun in a GT3 with my limited talent behind the wheel.
It find it interesting that in Europe GT2s aren't well regarded. I found it really hard to pick when buying my car as it was GT2 vs RS. I took the RS in the end and I've not regretted it. Mostly because I wanted NA over FI (previous car was a noble so fancied a change), and I thought I'd have more fun in a GT3 with my limited talent behind the wheel.
10-09-2005, 12:24 PM
#43
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If I had just 1 car it would be a GT3 RS.
JCM
JCM
10-09-2005, 01:04 PM
#44
Rhymes With Polo
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From reading this tread it seems the common theme is the GT2 is better than the 3. Now I think they are both great cars. I am not a fan of turbo cars , but got to give the 2 its due. But I find it very interesting that those making the case for the 2 then go on to explain how to upgrade the suspension and add parts to make it better.
So pay a 40k premium for a used 2, then spend 5,6,7k getting the suspension right?
I'll stick with the 3. Its great out of the box.
So pay a 40k premium for a used 2, then spend 5,6,7k getting the suspension right?
I'll stick with the 3. Its great out of the box.
10-09-2005, 03:06 PM
#45
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The GT2 is better than the GT3 in so many ways....but as is the 02 GT2 is not a better handling car...a highly skilled driver may drive the GT2 to some impressive times ...but it's ONLY advantage over the GT3 is in HP & TQ....it's much harder work to go as fast as a GT3 threw out a corner..not as much fun....the rest is no contest... GT2 all the way.
Porsche could make the GT3 tighter because the average driver will not get into trouble as fast with it's lower and naturally aspirated application and delivery of power.
This softness on the GT2 is actually something the engineers added to warn the driver that your coming close to it's limits.....making the average driver back off sooner....nervous before reaching it's true limits.....the cornering limit comes slower with much more warning....helping control the application and the delivery of power.. is also slow to help driver feed back...more room for reaction time in either case. This car is as user friendly as the can make it.
Can you imagine if they made the GT2 tighter in handling with a quicker and harsher rush of power..or with less drop in boost between shifts.....how many average drivers would end up going backwards down the street.
The GT2 and the GT3 to a lesser degree are all about being user friendly...
This is why the aftermarket is so strong in chassis development and tuning.
Porsche could make the GT3 tighter because the average driver will not get into trouble as fast with it's lower and naturally aspirated application and delivery of power.
This softness on the GT2 is actually something the engineers added to warn the driver that your coming close to it's limits.....making the average driver back off sooner....nervous before reaching it's true limits.....the cornering limit comes slower with much more warning....helping control the application and the delivery of power.. is also slow to help driver feed back...more room for reaction time in either case. This car is as user friendly as the can make it.
Can you imagine if they made the GT2 tighter in handling with a quicker and harsher rush of power..or with less drop in boost between shifts.....how many average drivers would end up going backwards down the street.
The GT2 and the GT3 to a lesser degree are all about being user friendly...
This is why the aftermarket is so strong in chassis development and tuning.