Total# USA GT2's
03-30-2005, 11:27 PM
#46
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My point is that if one is driving a GT3 on R compounds and one is in the high 1:30s (as in 1:37-1:38 range) before doing anything else to the car
Valid point, but don't see what it has to do with this thread?
And WSIR is NOT a momentum track by any means
I ain't arguing with you, just saying what almost every instructor I've had there has mentioned to me. I don't think momentum and throttle pedal position are divorced either.
I presume Fontana is like that too, but I don't do rovals.
I really enjoy Fontana, I like it much more than WSIR & BW, it has a ton of fun corners, and some great high speed bits, kind of a prefect smorgasboard of speed IMHO. I'd want to run there all the time if we could afford it, but for our small group it is just wayyyyy to costly. You could run 4 days at WSIR for the cost of 1 day at Fontana. It's really a great track, but it ain't four times as great!
Valid point, but don't see what it has to do with this thread?
And WSIR is NOT a momentum track by any means
I ain't arguing with you, just saying what almost every instructor I've had there has mentioned to me. I don't think momentum and throttle pedal position are divorced either.
I presume Fontana is like that too, but I don't do rovals.
I really enjoy Fontana, I like it much more than WSIR & BW, it has a ton of fun corners, and some great high speed bits, kind of a prefect smorgasboard of speed IMHO. I'd want to run there all the time if we could afford it, but for our small group it is just wayyyyy to costly. You could run 4 days at WSIR for the cost of 1 day at Fontana. It's really a great track, but it ain't four times as great!
03-30-2005, 11:35 PM
#47
Rhymes With Polo
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[QUOTE=Colmthe chassis become = with the power I think you might have a point."
Rolo,
There is no contradiction in my comment, and "I have no dog in the fight" either (since I own both) but in my opinion the GT2 is a superior car..it's only an opinion worth as much or as little as any other.
Your comment is telling and strikes at the core of the problem " It seems that everything I have read........" and is part of the myth, people are forming opinions about the GT2 based upon what they read and not actual experiences. Forget about the reading, drive both and then form your educated opinion. When did you ever buy a car without test driving it?
Now for clarification:
By responsiveness I meant when you get on it (like press the gas) you better have your ducks (wheels) in line..because everything happens faster in a GT2. It's more risky because there is less margin for error and therefore requires good technique.
How can risky be better?
Amusement parks have been exploiting this situation (or the perception of it) for years.[/QUOTE]
Perception vs reality
I didn't know you own both....so I will defer to you......show off
All kidding aside, I know the GT2 is an awesome car. And maybe five years from now I might be able to afford one. But it just seems the 3 might be a better balanced car, but again you have both and I have never driven a 2. I bet is is a thrill, cause the 3 sure is.
Rolo,
There is no contradiction in my comment, and "I have no dog in the fight" either (since I own both) but in my opinion the GT2 is a superior car..it's only an opinion worth as much or as little as any other.
Your comment is telling and strikes at the core of the problem " It seems that everything I have read........" and is part of the myth, people are forming opinions about the GT2 based upon what they read and not actual experiences. Forget about the reading, drive both and then form your educated opinion. When did you ever buy a car without test driving it?
Now for clarification:
By responsiveness I meant when you get on it (like press the gas) you better have your ducks (wheels) in line..because everything happens faster in a GT2. It's more risky because there is less margin for error and therefore requires good technique.
How can risky be better?
Amusement parks have been exploiting this situation (or the perception of it) for years.[/QUOTE]
Perception vs reality
I didn't know you own both....so I will defer to you......show off
All kidding aside, I know the GT2 is an awesome car. And maybe five years from now I might be able to afford one. But it just seems the 3 might be a better balanced car, but again you have both and I have never driven a 2. I bet is is a thrill, cause the 3 sure is.
03-31-2005, 12:33 AM
#49
Mike, my comments were regarding the 987 turning a faster time at a track than the 997.
This discussion is a bit different. albiet has somewhat similar underpinnings.
I think we can all agree that the GT3 is one of the best deals in porsche's entire lineup. i mean how much of the GT2's performance/etc do you get, for half the price? mabye even more than 100% considering that porsche races the GT3.
With the GT2, Porsche basically made a turbo with LESS frou frou and more power, and markets it as the 'ultimate roadgoing porsche' I suppose they intended to use it to solidify the 911's badboy image, and creating a halo model before they had the carrera GT back in 2001-2002~.
While i'm not belittling the GT2, I think it is overpriced. Ive driven it extensively and I don't think it is worth 200k.
This discussion is a bit different. albiet has somewhat similar underpinnings.
I think we can all agree that the GT3 is one of the best deals in porsche's entire lineup. i mean how much of the GT2's performance/etc do you get, for half the price? mabye even more than 100% considering that porsche races the GT3.
With the GT2, Porsche basically made a turbo with LESS frou frou and more power, and markets it as the 'ultimate roadgoing porsche' I suppose they intended to use it to solidify the 911's badboy image, and creating a halo model before they had the carrera GT back in 2001-2002~.
While i'm not belittling the GT2, I think it is overpriced. Ive driven it extensively and I don't think it is worth 200k.
03-31-2005, 01:07 AM
#50
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How many people have moved from a GT3 to a GT2...?
I think Watt's the only one I can think of, but he went on to the 360 pretty soon afterwards too. Everyone else I know went from a GT2 to a GT3.
I think Watt's the only one I can think of, but he went on to the 360 pretty soon afterwards too. Everyone else I know went from a GT2 to a GT3.
03-31-2005, 01:23 AM
#51
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The definitive answer to the GT2 vs. GT3 debate has already been posted in another forum
Says who? I think the definitive answer is illustrated by the number of trackers who have given up the GT2 and gone to a GT3, and every single one of them likes it better at the track. For me that is definitive. All the instructors at the PDE, the greatest legion of winning Porsche drivers this side of Europe, to a man they all prefer the GT3 as a track car, that to me is definitive. You may like to call some random poster you like definitive, but for me definitive is something said by folks who I respect as drivers, and can drive much better than I.
Opinions all, but there are those I respect and those I don't. I respect Colm'd for enjoying the car as a roadster, and JCM's enjoying it as a very difficult highwire act that helps him better balance in his Cup car. They make a compelling arguments for the 2. Neither of those quotes you quoted do.
The GT2's rap as 'The Widowmaker' will make it collectable, a legend even, but all said and done if you just enjoy having fun at the track, and don't enjoy living over the edge, the 3 is an easier car to enjoy yourself in. Basta!
Says who? I think the definitive answer is illustrated by the number of trackers who have given up the GT2 and gone to a GT3, and every single one of them likes it better at the track. For me that is definitive. All the instructors at the PDE, the greatest legion of winning Porsche drivers this side of Europe, to a man they all prefer the GT3 as a track car, that to me is definitive. You may like to call some random poster you like definitive, but for me definitive is something said by folks who I respect as drivers, and can drive much better than I.
Opinions all, but there are those I respect and those I don't. I respect Colm'd for enjoying the car as a roadster, and JCM's enjoying it as a very difficult highwire act that helps him better balance in his Cup car. They make a compelling arguments for the 2. Neither of those quotes you quoted do.
The GT2's rap as 'The Widowmaker' will make it collectable, a legend even, but all said and done if you just enjoy having fun at the track, and don't enjoy living over the edge, the 3 is an easier car to enjoy yourself in. Basta!
03-31-2005, 02:14 AM
#52
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GT3= A young Barry Bonds
GT2= Barry Bonds on [you can't prove a thing]
I'd buy a 2 in a second if I could feel good about the cost, which I can't yet.
If I had to have one car for the track and street, it would be the 2 for sure. All this talk of the dangerous beast makes me want to try it for myself... alas, it's always the one you don't have eh?
shoulda bought JF's car when I had the chance...
GT2= Barry Bonds on [you can't prove a thing]
I'd buy a 2 in a second if I could feel good about the cost, which I can't yet.
If I had to have one car for the track and street, it would be the 2 for sure. All this talk of the dangerous beast makes me want to try it for myself... alas, it's always the one you don't have eh?
shoulda bought JF's car when I had the chance...
04-01-2005, 02:21 AM
#53
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Its funny how many replies to this post refer to the GT2 price being too high compared to a GT3. For what one can buy a used GT2 for now, it appears to be solidly a great deal. Prices new don,t apply to a "great deal". I,m glad I was able to find a lightly used one as it was worth it. If I had to buy one at original new prices, the GT3 would the present P car. Mac, I agree with your opinion ( based on statements and opinions of others of course ) the GT2 is a car for people who like driving on the edge. I do own one and actually drive it too! I don,t have to drive it on a track to know the car is intoxicating for every time I drive it, I park it...................get out, look back at it..............and feel like I just put in ten 1:26 laps on my Ducati at Willow..............sweat included! Different strokes right? I will not be the guy that sells his GT2 to get a GT3. Not that doing so would be going backwards as I,m sure a GT3 is an awesome car. It,s just that there is no way it would do for me what the GT2 does.............................reward me with a feeling of knowing it is a serious car that some drivers are actually afraid of ! Maybe I,m slightly demented.............I don,t know. I,m not afraid of the car...................I simply know it is not a forgiving car that can be abused and overdriven without some serious consequences. No...........I have not mastered the car and could not hope to do so easily and without alot of on track seat time.............which I hope to be able to do soon. Every time I DO drive the car though ......it is rewarding and I,m glad I own it. It is an 11! My opinion is based on actual experiences I personally have encountered, not opinions of others that I read about. Until you actually drive a GT2..............your opinion of GT2,s is meaningless. I can,t tell you my opinion of a GT3 on track as I personally have never driven one on a track...............and have never bad mouthed a GT3 either as I don,t own one and have only test driven them on public roads. I only KNOW...........for me.............the GT2 fits! I think the GT3 fits you...................IMHO based on what you have stated ....of course. No "hissy fit" ( your quote! ) here.....................just the facts. LOL!
04-01-2005, 09:01 AM
#55
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<sigh> here we are again. Like Colm I have both. At retail, the extra performance of a GT2 is not worth the price of two GT3's. I think that is universally agreed. In the right hands, a GT2 is faster on a track than a GT3 both being stock. Who has ever dissed a car for having an extra 100 HP and 80 percent more torque?
The '2' is more difficult to drive than a '3' because the rush of power reduces the margin for error. Lines have to be modified, (later apex) to take advantage of the phenomenal acceleration to maximize exit speed. Throttle finesse is a must as is a lot of self discipline. To some, the extra challenge is a plus, it is more involving and rewarding. To others, the car is scary, and the more benign GT3 is deemed more fun to drive.
On my home track the GT2 is faster - it used to be a 4 second differential, now down to 2 seconds because I drove the '3' more often and I am comfortable near the limit. Why do I drive the '3' more? There are a lot of GT3's in the instructor run group and it is the closest thing to gentleman's spec racing you can find. A bunch of competent drivers in equal cars is always a joy.
At today's prices a used GT2 commands less of a premium over the GT3 and any prospective buyer should take a long look at the GT2. I find that it is harder to extract maximum performance from a GT2 but that performance is there without a doubt.
Colm - I an intrigued by your comments on the Cayman and its future as the performance model - perhaps putting the Cayman in the slot of the F 360 versus the 911 which moves up into F 550/575 territory. That would make a lot of sense based on the inherent advantages of a mid engined car. A GT3 motor in a Cayman would be a treat! Will Porsche finally make the 911 into a GT car? They seem to be headed in that direction. To me the GT2 and 3 were gifts to those of us who felt the 911 was becoming too luxurious, heavy and GT like. It will be interesting to watch the evolution.
The '2' is more difficult to drive than a '3' because the rush of power reduces the margin for error. Lines have to be modified, (later apex) to take advantage of the phenomenal acceleration to maximize exit speed. Throttle finesse is a must as is a lot of self discipline. To some, the extra challenge is a plus, it is more involving and rewarding. To others, the car is scary, and the more benign GT3 is deemed more fun to drive.
On my home track the GT2 is faster - it used to be a 4 second differential, now down to 2 seconds because I drove the '3' more often and I am comfortable near the limit. Why do I drive the '3' more? There are a lot of GT3's in the instructor run group and it is the closest thing to gentleman's spec racing you can find. A bunch of competent drivers in equal cars is always a joy.
At today's prices a used GT2 commands less of a premium over the GT3 and any prospective buyer should take a long look at the GT2. I find that it is harder to extract maximum performance from a GT2 but that performance is there without a doubt.
Colm - I an intrigued by your comments on the Cayman and its future as the performance model - perhaps putting the Cayman in the slot of the F 360 versus the 911 which moves up into F 550/575 territory. That would make a lot of sense based on the inherent advantages of a mid engined car. A GT3 motor in a Cayman would be a treat! Will Porsche finally make the 911 into a GT car? They seem to be headed in that direction. To me the GT2 and 3 were gifts to those of us who felt the 911 was becoming too luxurious, heavy and GT like. It will be interesting to watch the evolution.
04-01-2005, 11:51 AM
#56
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Originally Posted by MetalSolid
How many people have moved from a GT3 to a GT2...?
I always went back to 2's if you recall. drove my first 3 and sold it the next day and kept the 2 i'd planned to sell [SY]. i did drive my 2nd 3 for 5k and it was fun on the track, but the 2 is much better mountain car, until they deliver 3's with a lower gear set. and got my 3rd 2. my 3rd 3 i just sold and kept the strad...
so 3 gt2's i drove 5k, 10k, 4 k miles
3 gt3's 100, 5k, 100 miles
mileage does the talking
04-01-2005, 11:59 AM
#58
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Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
<sigh> Colm - I an intrigued by your comments on the Cayman and its future as the performance model - perhaps putting the Cayman in the slot of the F 360 versus the 911 which moves up into F 550/575 territory. That would make a lot of sense based on the inherent advantages of a mid engined car. A GT3 motor in a Cayman would be a treat! Will Porsche finally make the 911 into a GT car? They seem to be headed in that direction. To me the GT2 and 3 were gifts to those of us who felt the 911 was becoming too luxurious, heavy and GT like. It will be interesting to watch the evolution.
we have been discussing putting a gt3 motor in my 05 boxster s on that forum! What a car! I have ordered the LW coxster/gay man as well. Porsche should give us a 120k mid engine bombshell, as the 911 design just can not compete in handling. given how fantastic a boxster is, with a gt3 motor it would be amazing...and make a 911 irrelevant, which is why they put junior motors in the boxster. my geuss is the mid engine P's take over thru natural selection and the 911 fades away. owning the strad and the boxster have been real eye openers for me.
04-01-2005, 10:08 PM
#59
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Originally Posted by macfly
I just put in ten 1:26 laps on my Ducati at Willow
That would put you about third in this month's Superstock class sprint races.
That would put you about third in this month's Superstock class sprint races.
04-01-2005, 10:55 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by craigsduc
Actually it would place me in second in open superbike as thats what class the 996SPS falls into. Remember these guys are club racing. The AMA guys are in the low 120,s and occaisional high teens. My best was a 1:25. There is nothing like torque on two wheels, especially a Duck...........IMHO of course! Thats one of the reasons I like the GT2. Its the big brother to the GT3
Well you would have out run the Factory Harley VR1000
And that bike wasn't slow compared to street bikes....well most street bikes.