DealMan

Also, for those interested in details, Josh and I are not full-time journalists, but rather contributing writers (we have day jobs), and our interest in participating in this article was to drive the GT2/3 back-to-back for spirited street driving comparisons.

Additionally, we both have been fortunate to own a number of different P-cars over the years and have driven them competitively.

Mark GT2

In regards to the test that was performed.....I have no idea if it was done properly or not. I would suspect that the article was written by people that honestly tried to represent a fair trial.....but I wasn't there so I really can't say.

What I can say about it - I have a 2001 turbo with stock brakes and pagid orange pads (the stock pads warped two sets of rotors fairly quickly) and I have probably put another 6K track miles on the car with the new rotors with no problem (I had them cryogenically treated....not sure if that really does anything or not.....have heard they do and heard they don't from very qualified people). The turbo with orange pads stopped MUCH better than the stock PCCB.

As far as cooling on the GT2? I can't say yet - but my suspicion, and that of Brembo, is that there is more than enough cooling on the front brakes and perhaps a little more needed on the back. Going to test that out in May.

Jack - my PCCB rotors got toasted after 1700 total miles (mostly track) on the car. They seemed to be holding up "fairly well" until I put on the green pads - then they didn't last a single weekend.

Bob Rouleau

Jack - I got an estimated 9000 track miles from my PCCB rotors. As you know driving styles vary and I have always been easy on my car and my brakes. I "walk the walk" and brake early- brake less is a religion with me. Others who are harder on the brakes got less than half the miles on the same track. Tracks also make a difference of course. Aside to the journalists, I had the pleasure of showing Johannes the way around our track last year when he raced Grand Am/ Rolex at Le Circuit. A very nice guy and a great driver. Say hi for me.

Your comment prompted a look at records and I am confident saying that on my previous cars (993, 993 C4S, Boxster S) I got about 5,000 track miles before replacing rotors - note not because they were dead, rather as a precautionary measure. That was easy because big red rotors were/are pretty cheap.

Jack, like you I am also concerned about premature wear with cast iron rotors. I am suspicious of the yellow sport pads - in fact I am suspicious about all the new pad formulations. That's why I initiated the thread about pads. We'll see how the Orange Pagids and the newer RS-19s work out. No matter what, I can do math - iron rotor $280 US, PCCB rotor $8,700 US. One PCCB rotor will pay for 31 cast iron rotors. If I only get a season out of the iron rotors, I will not be driving by the time I replace the rotors 31 times.

Best,

brh986

Funny you bring that up because the GT3 (NOT the GT3 RS) in an R&T side by side objective comparison objectively met or even perhaps beat (by just a hair) the 360 CS.

Some aspects may be appropriate to subjectively comment on, ride quality, sound, etc. Brakes have one purpose and a purpose that is easily objectively measured. It amazes me that you nor any of your colleagues seem to be doing the tests that matter on these brakes and dealing with the results. They don't stop faster and they don't last longer, given these two FACTS they simply are not better brakes. "but but but I like they way the feel" What idiocy. NONE of the magazines mention this or bring any attention to it, WHY!?! In of itself one article clearly commenting "I like the way these brakes feel" is one thing but when article after article from the industry as a whole ignores the overwhelming evidence in regards to these brakes its both ridiculous and infuriating and yes IT IS a disservice to readers who depend on these publications for sound purchasing advice!

And how about along with that mentioning that they do not reduce stopping distance either?

gt2-996

BRH,

Why don't you come up with a formula and testing methodology for measuring initial bite, fade and overall feel and we will go apply it to our test. Of course please be sure to factor in a methodology for equalizing the different age and bedding procedures across the various components on the three cars we used for our test.

You are entirely missing the point of the test and the difference between the Harvard Medical Journal and Excellence Magazine. And for that your comments are simply absurd.

Josh

sjsharks

Was the Excellence article only about braking comparison, or was there more to the article?

gt2-996

sjsharks,

The article was a comparison of the gt2 and gt3 performed by four different drivers. Two of us are enthusiasts and gt2 owners, one races gt3 rsr and cup versions professionally and the other is the editor of excellence. It was simply meant to be a subjective study of the different models to determine which one each of us liked better. Nothing more and nothing less. It was a very similar article to excellence mags gt3 vs 73 Carrera rs test that hit the stands a few months ago. To answer your question, the brake discussion was only a fraction of the article.

josh

macfly

Neither of my local 'newstands' here in Hollywood have the mag, which seems odd, as they both are huge with thousands of magazines from all over the world. How, where do you get it, is it subscription only?

Marco Polo

The braking was mentioned as only one of many factors to be appreciated and was not dwelt upon. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that my fairly moderate observation would lead to some heated interchanges (PCCB is controversial), but I am.

Here's another item from the issue to chew over: In his sidebar, Brian mentions that the GT3 would be fun for a little while, but that having to continually work into high revs to exact good performance would become tiresome. I think this is amusing because I suspect it reveals the conditioning effect of his driving the GT2 daily.

In another perspective, this is the same sort of comment made about the Honda S2000 by Boxster owners, and by Boxster S owners about the base Boxster. I myself have a 310bhp Boxster and have been pleased with how much better the GT3 pulls from low revs in any gear. My first reaction to Brian's comment was, "That guy must scream around everywhere he goes." I just can't imagine winding out the GT3 as a daily routine around town, not because of the tedium of shifting, but because the speeds would be horrendous. But, I have never driven a car that was more powerful or quicker than my GT3. So my conditioning is a factor, too.

I will say that, for comuter-type surface street travel, my GT3 is smoothly capable of pulling from 2500rpm without lugging of any sort. Not seat-plastering g-force, but competent, brisk driving nonetheless.

[In view of some heat generated by other sections of this thread, let me expressly state that I am not flaming Brian. As I say, it was amusing to note our differing perspectives.]

Viken

I see it all the time. Did you try the one on Robertson and Pico? There's also one on Beverly Dr. between Wilshire and Olympic. Otherwise, you can subscribe by contacting:

Excellence Magazine
P. O. Box 1529
Ross, CA 94957-1529

415-382-0580

Excell911@aol.com

4 Kurves

Me too - even out here in the po-dunk town of Santa Clarita I see it on our local newsstand as well as the magazine section at the Barnes & Noble and the other bookstores.

forklift

The thing that surprised me about the article is that they could fade GT3 brakes on the street. I could see it on the track....that must have been some really fun street driving!

ringmeister

Sure, if you drive around with your left foot on the brake, you'll fade any brakes.

I have a subscription but haven't received the latest issue. I'm interested in reading the comparison since I sold an X50 for my GT3 and haven't been happier.

DealMan

brh986,

Based on your board name it appears that you are either a Boxster owner or fan, which is great, as I owned both a 986 and a 986S. If you review the comments on this thread, everyone with the exception of you has some interesting comment or feedback. However, for some reason you decided to blatantly disparage the contributing writers of the article for not conducting a scientific comparison of the brakes.

As many have commented in this thread, and if you took the time to reflect, you would realize that the article was meant to provide a comparison of the overall driving experience between two great cars. If you don't like the perspective of the article, then why don't you contact Excellence or another car magazine directly with your suggestion of conducting a scientific study.

Finally, it appears that your comments regarding PCCBs are purely based on anecdotal experiences of other people on this board who have actually driven or owned a car with PCCB. Have you ever had direct experience with PCCBs? It appears that you enjoy hijacking an otherwise productive conversation thread to lash out at other people without having much of a basis for your comments.

mds

Several reviewers of the S2000 made similar comments. Honda apparently responded for they developed for 2004 an engine with a 800rpm lower redline and more low end torque, apparently to address these concerns. The original, high-rev engine is still available, but unfortunately overseas only, not in the USA. I prefer the original and feel the new model dilutes its uniqueness and its original spirit and inspiration.

Maybe with enough such comments Porsche will do similarly? I sure hope not. IMO the car is not tiring, far from it. It continues to be uniquely amazing.