Excellence on GT2 vs. GT3
04-21-2004, 05:22 PM
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You will note that Porsche doesn't use the PCCB at their PDE program!
Oh! It's not available for the 996...I'm sure their Engineers could fix that.
They would do all customers a service by using them, replacement (rotor) volumes would go up, and prices would come down!
Oh! It's not available for the 996...I'm sure their Engineers could fix that.
They would do all customers a service by using them, replacement (rotor) volumes would go up, and prices would come down!
04-21-2004, 05:23 PM
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The PCCB's did not exhibit any fade, whereas the GT3 with steel rotors did.
Funnily enough I got into fade with my stock set up at my last track day, guess I'm finally using 'em right! I have the Pagid RS-19's sitting here ready to go in for my next track day, and I'm going to do some superior fluid, and see how it goes.
Phillip, Hurley Haywood is one of the greatest professional Porsche race car drivers ever, but he too has a great responsibility to support his sponsors.
DealMan & gt2-996, I will read you article with interest, going to the newstand right now. (My Dad was a bonehead journalist too, infact he was president of the Guild of Motoring Writers in the UK for many years after he finished racing, so you are in fine company!)
brh-986, you have a good point, some objective tests would be good. My instincts however would favor the PCCB’s for a day, but since we know that they fall apart after a few days it seems a fairly pointless test.
To all, Is this really the brake of the future going thru teething troubles, or is it some short term fad that will be a long forgotten curiosity in 10 years time?
Funnily enough I got into fade with my stock set up at my last track day, guess I'm finally using 'em right! I have the Pagid RS-19's sitting here ready to go in for my next track day, and I'm going to do some superior fluid, and see how it goes.
Phillip, Hurley Haywood is one of the greatest professional Porsche race car drivers ever, but he too has a great responsibility to support his sponsors.
DealMan & gt2-996, I will read you article with interest, going to the newstand right now. (My Dad was a bonehead journalist too, infact he was president of the Guild of Motoring Writers in the UK for many years after he finished racing, so you are in fine company!)
brh-986, you have a good point, some objective tests would be good. My instincts however would favor the PCCB’s for a day, but since we know that they fall apart after a few days it seems a fairly pointless test.
To all, Is this really the brake of the future going thru teething troubles, or is it some short term fad that will be a long forgotten curiosity in 10 years time?
04-21-2004, 06:03 PM
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BRH,
Your argument regarding objectivity and automobile magazines is utterly preposterous. I suppose that Car magazine should have tested a dozen or so alignment settings on the GT3RS before they proclaimed the Ferrari Challenge Stradale the "better" car in their anniversary issue. Road & Track should never base any of their tests on manufacturers HP claims. Instead they should use several different dynos under multiple different temperature settings to validate true brake HP. And professional Porsche drivers like Hurley Haywood and Johannes van Overbeek should be forced to perform lifecycle testing on PCCBs before they say they like the way they feel better.
Reread the stated purpose of the comparison test from my original post. To say we are doing readers a disservice by commenting on which brakes we liked better is beyond foolish - you are the jackass.
Josh
2002 GT2
Your argument regarding objectivity and automobile magazines is utterly preposterous. I suppose that Car magazine should have tested a dozen or so alignment settings on the GT3RS before they proclaimed the Ferrari Challenge Stradale the "better" car in their anniversary issue. Road & Track should never base any of their tests on manufacturers HP claims. Instead they should use several different dynos under multiple different temperature settings to validate true brake HP. And professional Porsche drivers like Hurley Haywood and Johannes van Overbeek should be forced to perform lifecycle testing on PCCBs before they say they like the way they feel better.
Reread the stated purpose of the comparison test from my original post. To say we are doing readers a disservice by commenting on which brakes we liked better is beyond foolish - you are the jackass.
Josh
2002 GT2
04-21-2004, 06:23 PM
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Oooh flames! It's been a while since we had some action here. I can contribute a few tidbits. I have been with Hurley Heywood, Pierre Savoy and Rick Bye when they take journalists through track testing of new Porsche models. They certainly earn their pay because some writers fancy themselves as F1 level drivers whereas in truth they are duffers.
Hurley and his brave pals are all working for the manufacturer and they honor the company line. It's their job and they do it well.
Car magazines do objective tests - irrespective of the manufacturers claims the test acceleration, braking, top speeds and the rest. They generally do this months before the car is available and weaknesses like PCCB are not known.
Forgive me if I am being persistent, but did anyone associated with the article in Excellence mention the ridiculous replacement cost of the PCCB rotors?
I think that fair reporting might say something like "Subjectively the PCCB outperformed conventional rotors with better initial bite and less fade after a long track session. On the other hand when you need to replace them you're looking at a cost of about $35,000 for a set of four."
I think a little sidebar like that would be very useful to potential buyers. For a GT3 buyer, the option price of around $8,000 is misleading since one could hardly expect that a single replacement could cost more than the option itself or, $8,700. When I got my GT2 I asked how much the rotors cost and the dealer was unable to answer. Months later I found out and I was shocked. Since I had accepted the durability claims at face value, my main concern was chipping one when changin wheels. Little did I know ...
Hurley and his brave pals are all working for the manufacturer and they honor the company line. It's their job and they do it well.
Car magazines do objective tests - irrespective of the manufacturers claims the test acceleration, braking, top speeds and the rest. They generally do this months before the car is available and weaknesses like PCCB are not known.
Forgive me if I am being persistent, but did anyone associated with the article in Excellence mention the ridiculous replacement cost of the PCCB rotors?
I think that fair reporting might say something like "Subjectively the PCCB outperformed conventional rotors with better initial bite and less fade after a long track session. On the other hand when you need to replace them you're looking at a cost of about $35,000 for a set of four."
I think a little sidebar like that would be very useful to potential buyers. For a GT3 buyer, the option price of around $8,000 is misleading since one could hardly expect that a single replacement could cost more than the option itself or, $8,700. When I got my GT2 I asked how much the rotors cost and the dealer was unable to answer. Months later I found out and I was shocked. Since I had accepted the durability claims at face value, my main concern was chipping one when changin wheels. Little did I know ...
04-21-2004, 06:50 PM
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Bob,
Valid points all. Let me try to address your comments:
None of us that were involved in the article were compensated by anyone and we felt no obligation to honor the company line. I understand your point about factory drivers. As you know, Johannes drives a Porsche but he is not a factory driver.
As for car magazines, I subscribe to a dozen of them and I agree with your comments regarding testing procedures. I made the objectivity argument to illustrate that braking, acceleration and lateral gs are only a few of the measures that need to be taken into consideration when performing truly objective tests. The alignment issue, had it been factored in, when the GT2 press car originally made the rounds would have materially affected the testers original impressions of the car. Remember all of the "evil" handling comments from a few years back....
No we did not mention the replacement cost or the longevity issues in the article. That was a conscious decision on our part. Excellence will likely address this question in another article. Again please read the stated purpose of our test.
I do however completely agree with your comments regarding the magnitude of the issue and a sidebar would have been helpful. The brakes are obscenely expensive to replace and they are subject to adverse wear patterns and even chipping from rocks and other debris (see my earlier post).
Also remember what Excellence is and what it is not.....
Josh
2002 GT2
Valid points all. Let me try to address your comments:
None of us that were involved in the article were compensated by anyone and we felt no obligation to honor the company line. I understand your point about factory drivers. As you know, Johannes drives a Porsche but he is not a factory driver.
As for car magazines, I subscribe to a dozen of them and I agree with your comments regarding testing procedures. I made the objectivity argument to illustrate that braking, acceleration and lateral gs are only a few of the measures that need to be taken into consideration when performing truly objective tests. The alignment issue, had it been factored in, when the GT2 press car originally made the rounds would have materially affected the testers original impressions of the car. Remember all of the "evil" handling comments from a few years back....
No we did not mention the replacement cost or the longevity issues in the article. That was a conscious decision on our part. Excellence will likely address this question in another article. Again please read the stated purpose of our test.
I do however completely agree with your comments regarding the magnitude of the issue and a sidebar would have been helpful. The brakes are obscenely expensive to replace and they are subject to adverse wear patterns and even chipping from rocks and other debris (see my earlier post).
Also remember what Excellence is and what it is not.....
Josh
2002 GT2
04-21-2004, 06:52 PM
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Might as well chime in
The only actual test results that I've seen so far were:
Autoweek, July 10, 2002.
**********************************************************
The new Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes were only slightly less awe-inspiring, bringing the GT2 from 60 mph to a stop in 114 feet. Had this been any other car we would have enthused about that figure, but in the rarified air of this supercar we were hoping for a sub-100-foot figure. The Z06 still holds the record at 105 feet from 60, followed by the BMW Z8 and 911 Turbo at 109 and 110 feet, respectively.
**********************************************************
This is only one test - but it indicates that a stock Turbo (which is quite a bit heavier than the GT2) can stop in 109 feet and the GT2 stops in 114 feet - makes me wonder.
I've certainly tried it all. I suspect that for normal street driving the PCCB is fine - but for how long. On the track, or in high performance driving on the street, the stock PCCB will fail if they get hot.....I was told that by Porsche and I experienced it first hand. The green pads? Yes, they work great - until your rotors get destroyed within a few hours of hard driving.
I switched to steel - Brembo GT - and I can guarantee you that they stop better, they wear better, parts are cheaper, they're totally predictable, and the weight is "almost" as light as the PCCB setup.
My only wish is that everyone is satisfied with the brake system they have to meet their individual needs. If you don't drive hard - why worry about it. If you drive hard.....read some of the posts in this forum. Unfortunately, for my needs the PCCB were not the proper solution.
Autoweek, July 10, 2002.
**********************************************************
The new Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes were only slightly less awe-inspiring, bringing the GT2 from 60 mph to a stop in 114 feet. Had this been any other car we would have enthused about that figure, but in the rarified air of this supercar we were hoping for a sub-100-foot figure. The Z06 still holds the record at 105 feet from 60, followed by the BMW Z8 and 911 Turbo at 109 and 110 feet, respectively.
**********************************************************
This is only one test - but it indicates that a stock Turbo (which is quite a bit heavier than the GT2) can stop in 109 feet and the GT2 stops in 114 feet - makes me wonder.
I've certainly tried it all. I suspect that for normal street driving the PCCB is fine - but for how long. On the track, or in high performance driving on the street, the stock PCCB will fail if they get hot.....I was told that by Porsche and I experienced it first hand. The green pads? Yes, they work great - until your rotors get destroyed within a few hours of hard driving.
I switched to steel - Brembo GT - and I can guarantee you that they stop better, they wear better, parts are cheaper, they're totally predictable, and the weight is "almost" as light as the PCCB setup.
My only wish is that everyone is satisfied with the brake system they have to meet their individual needs. If you don't drive hard - why worry about it. If you drive hard.....read some of the posts in this forum. Unfortunately, for my needs the PCCB were not the proper solution.
04-21-2004, 07:13 PM
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Josh, Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I am handicapped by not having seen the article. Had I written it, I would not have said anything about longevity since all the evidence (as far as you and Bryan are concerned) is anecdotal. The bizarre replacement cost merits a mention if only because they are so darn expensive as to be exceptional.
Mark - brake tests based on distance to stop can be misleading. Like the skidpad, tires make a big difference. I have been told that cheating is common - shaved tires for example. To be valid you need a consistent surface and very similar climatic conditions. Was that the case in the example you cited? Who knows maybe the PCCB equipped press car had "tired" rotors after hours of being thrashed by magazine writers. Certainly the performance of my brakes degraded over time until they finally expired.
Regards,
Mark - brake tests based on distance to stop can be misleading. Like the skidpad, tires make a big difference. I have been told that cheating is common - shaved tires for example. To be valid you need a consistent surface and very similar climatic conditions. Was that the case in the example you cited? Who knows maybe the PCCB equipped press car had "tired" rotors after hours of being thrashed by magazine writers. Certainly the performance of my brakes degraded over time until they finally expired.
Regards,
04-21-2004, 07:20 PM
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Mark,
Thanks for providing the Autoweek test results. Since we did not have test equipment we could only comment subjectively on the feel of the PCCBs versus the steel rotors. I would love to see additional objective tests of the PCCBs....
I think your brakes are awesome. I wish we had your car on hand when we did our test. Unfortunately we only had a couple of stock GT2s and a GT3 available and so we based our evaluation on that machinery.
If I have to replace my PCCBs I will definately consider replacing them with the Brembo GT kit or some other alternative unless the prices of PCCBs come down materially.
If I am correct Bob got 9000 track miles out of his PCCBs. And I assume that his got hot during that period. Others have had disastrous results in many fewer miles. I only wish I knew what is causing the delta.
All of that aside, the purpose of our article was not to debate the cost or longevity issues of PCCBs. We have written more on that topic on this board alone than would fit in an entire issue of Excellence. It is certainly an issue that deserves a much more scientific and focused discussion than we could dealt with in the context of the article.
Josh
Thanks for providing the Autoweek test results. Since we did not have test equipment we could only comment subjectively on the feel of the PCCBs versus the steel rotors. I would love to see additional objective tests of the PCCBs....
I think your brakes are awesome. I wish we had your car on hand when we did our test. Unfortunately we only had a couple of stock GT2s and a GT3 available and so we based our evaluation on that machinery.
If I have to replace my PCCBs I will definately consider replacing them with the Brembo GT kit or some other alternative unless the prices of PCCBs come down materially.
If I am correct Bob got 9000 track miles out of his PCCBs. And I assume that his got hot during that period. Others have had disastrous results in many fewer miles. I only wish I knew what is causing the delta.
All of that aside, the purpose of our article was not to debate the cost or longevity issues of PCCBs. We have written more on that topic on this board alone than would fit in an entire issue of Excellence. It is certainly an issue that deserves a much more scientific and focused discussion than we could dealt with in the context of the article.
Josh
04-21-2004, 07:29 PM
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Bob,
Thanks for your comments. I only hope you feel the same after having read the article
I know for certain that we all had great fun that day!
And I completely agree with your comments about that condition of the PCCBs and the effect on the test results. As with all brakes the PCCBs perform differently when they are "green", once they have been bedded properly and once they began to degrade. However I would hazard a guess that the PCCBs are even more sensitive than steels if for no reason other than that their behavioral characteristics are relatively unknown....
Josh
Thanks for your comments. I only hope you feel the same after having read the article
I know for certain that we all had great fun that day!And I completely agree with your comments about that condition of the PCCBs and the effect on the test results. As with all brakes the PCCBs perform differently when they are "green", once they have been bedded properly and once they began to degrade. However I would hazard a guess that the PCCBs are even more sensitive than steels if for no reason other than that their behavioral characteristics are relatively unknown....
Josh
04-21-2004, 07:33 PM
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Bob:
If I recall correctly, didn't you say that you got approximately 10,000 TRACK miles out of your PCCB's before they expired? If I'm wrong, could you possibly give me your best guess? The reason I ask -- it appears (again based upon anecdotal evidence) that the Porsche steel rotors on the GT3 are also deteriorating quite rapidly when exposed to track/race conditions. I'm aware of several GT3's needing new front rotors after relatively minimal track and hard street use (less than a total of 4000 miles on the odometer), and in one case, new rotors were required after only ~ 1000 track miles. I'm convinced that there's a brake cooling problem/issue for both GT2/3's that is independent of the type of rotor in use. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
BTW, didn't Porsche step up to the plate and give you 1 free "goodwill" replacement of the PCCB's?
If I recall correctly, didn't you say that you got approximately 10,000 TRACK miles out of your PCCB's before they expired? If I'm wrong, could you possibly give me your best guess? The reason I ask -- it appears (again based upon anecdotal evidence) that the Porsche steel rotors on the GT3 are also deteriorating quite rapidly when exposed to track/race conditions. I'm aware of several GT3's needing new front rotors after relatively minimal track and hard street use (less than a total of 4000 miles on the odometer), and in one case, new rotors were required after only ~ 1000 track miles. I'm convinced that there's a brake cooling problem/issue for both GT2/3's that is independent of the type of rotor in use. Your thoughts would be appreciated.
BTW, didn't Porsche step up to the plate and give you 1 free "goodwill" replacement of the PCCB's?
04-21-2004, 07:33 PM
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FWIW, these comparative braking tests are not that too conclusive. Before I got my GT3, I had the opportunity to drive a brand new one just off the boat with steel brakes. That car's brakes were the most amazing things I had ever felt. Just a slight touch of the pedal stopped the car on a dime. My car's steel brakes are nowhere near that feel. The pedal effort required to stop is quite a bit greater, but the car seems to stop very well. I think there are quite a bit of variations between cars in almost every aspect. Not only the first GT3's steel brakes felt better than mine, but also better than the PCCB's on GT2's I have driven.
04-21-2004, 08:05 PM
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Viken, could the difference be in the valving of the master cyclinder?
I suspect the calipers, discs and pads didn't change, but maybe there was a swap made to the master cylinder assembly. Maybe the early ones had a slightly different configuration?
I suspect the calipers, discs and pads didn't change, but maybe there was a swap made to the master cylinder assembly. Maybe the early ones had a slightly different configuration?
04-21-2004, 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by macfly
Viken, could the difference be in the valving of the master cyclinder? I suspect the calipers, discs and pads didn't change, but maybe there was a swap made to the master cylinder assembly. Maybe the early ones had a slightly different configuration?
Viken, could the difference be in the valving of the master cyclinder? I suspect the calipers, discs and pads didn't change, but maybe there was a swap made to the master cylinder assembly. Maybe the early ones had a slightly different configuration?
04-21-2004, 08:22 PM
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Jack,
You make some interesting observations, and in another thread I commented on the brake cooling characteristics of our cars. After a spirited run session in my GT2 at Sears Point (Infineon) with a friend in a Ruf RTurbo, we measured front rotor temperatures with a pyrometer. My PCCBs were 200 degree fahrenheit cooler than his steel rotors, and we went on/came off the track at the same time. Additionally, we were running similar times, though he usually beats my time by a second or so.
My point to this long reply is that the stock brake cooling might be sufficient, and the issue might be with the pad properties.
To your other point about number of track miles achieved with steel versus ceramics, I agree and have seen steel rotors fail in less than half the time compared to ceramics. Unfortunately for us, the PCCB rotors are more than double the price of steel rotors.
You make some interesting observations, and in another thread I commented on the brake cooling characteristics of our cars. After a spirited run session in my GT2 at Sears Point (Infineon) with a friend in a Ruf RTurbo, we measured front rotor temperatures with a pyrometer. My PCCBs were 200 degree fahrenheit cooler than his steel rotors, and we went on/came off the track at the same time. Additionally, we were running similar times, though he usually beats my time by a second or so.
My point to this long reply is that the stock brake cooling might be sufficient, and the issue might be with the pad properties.
To your other point about number of track miles achieved with steel versus ceramics, I agree and have seen steel rotors fail in less than half the time compared to ceramics. Unfortunately for us, the PCCB rotors are more than double the price of steel rotors.
04-21-2004, 08:55 PM
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On the subject of steel I just emailed Alcon in the UK, as they make replacement floating discs, and have fitted many GT3 Cup cars in the UK. This was done because the oem one piece discs had heat dissipation issues that couldn't be overcome with cooling on the track. The floating disc cured the heat build up.
I have asked if we can get them to fit our cars directly, as the floating construction saves around 15lbs a corner, and we can order them slotted too. Could be the best of all worlds, lighter, stronger, and cooler. I'll let you know what I hear.
I have asked if we can get them to fit our cars directly, as the floating construction saves around 15lbs a corner, and we can order them slotted too. Could be the best of all worlds, lighter, stronger, and cooler. I'll let you know what I hear.