OK, this is just me sounding off, but I'd love to hear some other GT2/3 owner's feedback on this.

I bought a GT3 because it is the most track orientated road car out there, within in my price range. I was really excited to join up, and join in with the two Porsche clubs, PCA & POC, thinking they would run great DE events for us to enjoy our cars.

Wrong!!

Both of these groups won't allow us to do anything on a big track without making modifications that are a real pain, like having to put in permenent roll cages, six point harness systems, and seat back brace support systems. This is not a cute look in a car that you have to take clients to lunch in!

I had such a great time with the BMW CCA owners during the last two years, they run great track days, as do TrackQuest :-) Driving Concepts, Tim Herren etc etc, but to go play in a Porsche club you almost have to buy a dedicated car that has been 'tracked out', as getting any kind of reasonable DE time or experience is just not possible with them. POC keep withdrawing DE from their events altogether, like the upcoming Festival of Speed at Fontana.

Why do these Porsche clubs make it so hard for new owners to come any enjoy their cars?

Are there not enough owners out there who'd enjoy DE to make it worth their while?

I feel thier focus on those who are only interested in racing will close the door on many of us 'sports drivers' for who DE is a wonderful way of experiencing our cars, and honing our skills.

To be honest if I was going racing it would be in a Radical, not a Porsche, especially one I have to drive to work on Monday morning!

 

In case you interested...Here is PCA's 2004 rule book for car safety requirements...

http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/docs/pca_rules_2004.pdf

 

for pca you may need a 5 point harness and a harness bar or roll bar "not cage" To attach you shoulder straps to. You only need this stuff if you run in the fastest group. clubs around the country modify the rules to suit their needs.

 

Different Porsche clubs have different rules. Also, BMW, Saab, etc. have club events that do not require these stringent guidelines. In my area, we have other clubs not affiliated with PCA, which allow cars to run as they are with no run groups (but with all the safe passing rules).

I know many PCA members that have left because of these intrusive rules. Best to look for non-PCA DE in your area.

 

Problem with their roll bar rule is that you must have backing plates underneath the car with holes drilled through the floor and the legs bolted and the same thing for the rear legs, unless they are welded to the chassis. Pretty stupid rule if you look at the way the Porsche Techequipment Roll/Harness bar is bolted into the chassis with grade 8 bolts at the place where the seats belts are bolted in. Arguably the strongest points in the chassis to bolt something too...Besides, the Euro CS versions of the GT3 and GT2 affix the rollbar in this way. My guess is that Porsche Motorsports is better equiped to determine from an engineering safety standpoint, the best way to affix their roll bar. NOT THE PCA!!!!

 

Mac,

The requirements you are talking about sound like what PCA has in place for Club Racing not driver Education. You may want to double check. Our region MNYPCA does not require what you are speaking of even in the higher groups. They are recomended though. One exception being roll bars are required in a Cab.

I do not see how someone could be expected to fit their car with these safety items before ever driving on the track. It is not for everyone. then you would be stuck with a roll bar ect..Good luck.

Best,

Don

 

Come on Rockit, you're stepping out there in uncharterd territory for yourself again....

First point, to Mac, check with your local PCA region. I've never seen a PCA DE require a rollcage or harnesses - at least out here they don't and I've seen many other regions that don't require it either so I can't imagine your local region being any different. I know nothing about POC but I thought you had already run a DE with them...?

Second point - Rockit, what do the clubrace rules have to do with DEs?

Third and final point - Rockit - I'm not even going to go there with you on the PCA rollcage rules - suffice it to say that there are thankfully a lot of people who know a lot more about safety and rollcage design than you (or me for that matter) and are more concerned with safety than aesthetics.

 

Actually rockitman the GT3 CS cage bolts to a set of studs mounted to plates on the floor of the car and not to the seat belt points. I know this because I have the CS cage in my garage and was hoping to install it, but discovered when my car arrived that USA cars do not have these plates. I probably will eventually weld in plates, but not now on a brand new car.

I agree with younster that there are many groups, especially in CA, where you can run your car.

Finally, my local PCA approved my Porsche OE bolt in safety equipment for club time trialing. Talk with your head of tech and see if you can reach some compromise.

 

mds,
That's sounds like a logical approach. If the safety people would inspect the car, I think they would agree the roll bar, the way it is installed is rigid. I am using superior, stronger bolts than the stainless ones that came with the bar. The bolt heads on the stock bolts are really thin and look like they could be subject to sheering if great forces were applied to them in a roll over. I am not even sure those bolts are grade 8 in sheer strength.
The thickness of the stock bolt heads are: 1/8"
The ones I replaced them with are 1/4"

 

macfly,

I'm w/bob_dallas on this one. I've never seen a PCA region require any of the items you mentioned in your post for a DE. Yes, for club racing, but never for DE.

You should check w/the region you want to participate with again, because that does not sound normal.

Greg A

 

I've never seen a PCA region require any of the items you mentioned in your post for a DE

Zone 8 is very specific about it, below is a copy/paste from the PCA San Diego PDF 'Rules for DE'.
(RegionDErules20502rev.doc)

A) Lap Belts and Harnesses
Belt Size Approved 3" competition lap belts, 3" shoulder harness belts, and at least one 2" antisubmarine strap are mandatory for all drivers and passengers of Drivers Education events. Restraint systems of questionable condition, design, material, mounting, or which are in any way unsafe, will be disallowed. Those over five (5) years old, but in good condition, will be allowed at the discretion of the Chief Tech Inspector.
The event master may allow stock seat belts in the cars in S and S/S classes driven by novice drivers at parking lot events.
1) “Y” harnesses are not allowed.
2) Shoulder Belt Support All high back seats, including those seats where the headrest is an integral part of the seat, must be equipped with "H" style shoulder harnesses spacer or equivalent. A strap attached to the seat that separates the belts meets this requirement. All 914's must be equipped with two single straps and/or "H" style if the seat is not used for strap support.
3) Guidelines for mounting restraint systems Hardware should meet or exceed the strength of standard DOT or SAE approved type. Example: Forged eye bolts with 7/16" SAE threads. The Brey-Krause R-9001 Tunnel Side Seat Belt Mount Kit is acceptable for 1985 and later 944, 1985-1989 Carrera, 964, 968, 993, 996 and Boxster models. The driver shall certify that the device is an approved Brey-Krause device, and that the seat, seat track and track mount are stock and in good condition. All seatbelt attachments must be made in a safe and workman like manner, subject to the approval of the technical inspector. All attachments to sheet metal portions of the car must have adequate backing plates. Lap belts should be mounted to approximately bisect the angle between the thigh and the spine as viewed from the side. Competition harnesses should be mounted so that the rearward horizontal portion leaves the shoulders at an angle approximately 90 degrees to the spine as viewed from the side. Only one (1) mounting per mounting point. Clip in safety harness components must be safety wired. A single anti-submarine strap may be mounted through the sheet metal of the floor with an adequate backing plate, or may be mounted to a metal bar bolted beneath the front seat rail bolts. Double antisubmarine straps may be mounted beneath the rear seat rail bolts, one on each side.
4) Lap belt contact All seats that eliminate substantial contact of the lap belt with the occupant must have lap belts slots in the sides of the seats and the belts must run through the slots.
5) Instructors are strongly urged to have passenger 5 point harness installed.

 

Macfly (et al)

1) PCA (National) sets guidelines for DE and nowhere will you find a requirement for roll cages etc. The whole point of DE is to teach people how to drive their cars which are normally used on the street. It is Driver Education, not racing. It is high performance driving for sure but it is unreasonable to expect someone with a porsche to drive it like a Taurus. That's why the DE program exists. Better to learn how to handle the car safely than to make a costly mistake on your own.

2) That being said, some regions of PCA do impose the use of additional safety gear. Most often this is for the top run groups only. Those groups are normally composed of race cars not street cars. I'd call the region track chair or Chief Instructor and find out the full story. Runs groups are typically Novice - run with an instructor - Intermediate - signed off to drive solo - Expert and finally Instructors.

3) In our region Rennsport PCA (www.rennsport.ca) we require the following:

Snell 2000 or later helmet
Car inspected by a competent authority within two weeks of the event
Track side inspection (worn tires, low brake fluid, working tail lights - wipers, no loose objects in the car, working OEM seat belts.)

Cabs other than Boxsters and 996's need a roll bar (not cage a bar) because we have seen the windshield header collapse on older cabs in a roll over. We recommend a 2.5 lb fire extinguisher but it is not mandatory.

That's it. Most regions have sensible rules like ours. You may be dealing with a group that requires more but I suspect this is a misunderstanding relating to the highest run group (instructors usually) where some regions do impose greater safety standards given the much higher speeds involved.

I'd be interested in hearing more as you dig down to the hard info. You can find contacts for all pca regions at www.pca.org

Best,

 

From my experience, the rules for PCA DE do seem to vary by region. But I have never heard of any region that requires a roll bar for DE events (other than the possible exception of drop tops). I have heard of them requiring the same harneses/seat belts for both driver and passenger. I would love to see standard rules for the different regions, I think that is something they are working on.

 

Hi Robert,

I am a new member of PCA (#2004026447).

I would like to participate in the DE part of the CA Speedway event in March, but I am not sure if me and my car are allowed?

I am an experienced driver with 3 years DE under my belt. I have driven CA Speedway several times with BMW CCA and know the circuit quite well. My DE includes Derek Daly 4 day school & BMW’s own Performance Driving School, over 20 sessions with BMW CCA , 12 sessions with Driving Concepts and 1 event with POC. I have never bothered to get a competition license, as I don’t intend to race, I just like driving at the tracks, and learning how to be a better driver.

My car is a completely bone stock standard GT3, no extra roll bars, harness .

Please can you clarify if I can participate in the PCA DE.

Thanks so much, all the best.....Andrew

Andrew,

Unfortunately, I haven't examined a GT3 up close yet...it has a factory roll bar? Does it have more than just normal 3-point belts? Bottom line is that all cars must have a roll bar, 5-point harnesses, and a fire extinguisher to start with.

A full copy of what's required is located at: http://www.pcasdr.org/club/DErules91803.doc <http://www.pcasdr.org/club/DErules91803.doc>

Regards,

Robert

 

You have received some great replys here. For the PCA, please check with the regional board and get the whole story. There may be an insurance issue that made the belt requirement higher. Running away to some other club doesn't help us maintain sensible safety requirements.