macfly

Thanks AW, am awaiting their quote in the mail, I'l let you all know what it is when it arrives.

Bob Rouleau

Guys,

I was on the road and in Forum Deprivation for a few days. On the subject of timing, my region is one of the ones Todd refers to. We do not allow timing. Of course we're in Canada and things are different here including the laws and insurance policies.

We forbid timing in the hope that particpants will have improved chances of collecting insurance in the unlikely event of an accident. Last season we ran 15 track days with an average of 100 cars per event and had one incident. A minor ding on a fender which was repaired by pulling the fender out by hand.

Still, in these parts timing is one of the metrics used by insurance underwriters to establish whether an event is a "speed event". Note that insurance policies here use different wording (sometimes) and the laws that regulate insurance companies are different. Denial of coverage for a "speed event" is pretty broad language perhaps too broad for the USA where there are sixty times more lawyers per capita than here.

DE is not a racing as we all agree. In our experience, while timing can be a great tool for teaching (rough driver stays on the gas forever - brakes like a madman goes slow. Time his laps then get him to do it smoother and see lap times drop) The other side of the coin, is that most particpants are competitive. Some of them have better driving skills than others. Given the incentive to shave a second off a lap, some will drive beyond their skill level and end up in the wall.

Regards,

Ted Brewer

Todd:

As you know, I instruct for TracQuest, PCA, BMWCCA, et. al. and I am interested in your take on instructor insurance coverage relative to the fact that we do not pay for our track time. Does this "compensation", if it can be defined as such, constitute a business relationship and mean we are using our cars for business and thus might not be covered? I do not know if this makes any sense but, I seem to remember that if I used my car as a delivery vehicle for hire I would not be covered. I realize you are not giving legal advice and sorry to bug you with this stuff.

Ted Brewer

Bob Rouleau

Ted,

You just opened a BIG can of worms! I have been bugging PCA for years about instructor insurance. As far as I can tell, there is no such thing. I worry about this because if my student makes a mistake and crashes, will he/she decide to sue me? Think of Stella who collected over 600K from the home of the big Mac because their coffee was too hot. The fact that she placed a container of hot coffee between her thighs and drove off didn't matter. With that kind of stupid litiigation having been proven, I did the obvious and bought an umbrella liability policy to cover me just-in case. PCA has just introduced a National Certification prograsm which I hope will lead to insurance in the future.

Best,

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Hi Ted:

While there are never any guarantees with things legal, I think your insurance company would have a tough time succeeding in denying you coverage for an incident because you were instructing and thus using the car for business. I think the instructor relationship is more accurately described as people (instructors) who want to help new students get interested in the sport, and shouldn't have to pay to do it. Certainly at my events, part of the instruction is taking students for rides, so arguably it would be tough to charge instructors for doing what they do as part of the instruction.

Besides, if your use was a business use and the track time you receive was compensation, think of the income tax complexities that would arise, for both event promoters and instructors!

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Hi Bob:

I have no idea how things work in Canada (other than that the heaters had better work or you're all in deep doo doo! ), but this isn't much of a concern in the U.S. for two reasons. First, when the event promoter buys insurance for an event, everyone is covered under the policy - the promoter, the track, the instructors and all of the participants. It's a $5 million policy, so if a student sues you, you'd be entitled to a defense under that policy. Second, contrary to popular Internet rumor, the liability waivers that people sign are very effective. In the U.S. they waive liability for everything but gross negligence and intentional conduct, which can't be waived under the laws of most of all states. There may be cases where a plaintiff got around the waiver, but I'm not aware of one. Otoh, I'm personally aware of two cases in which the plaintiff lost on summary judgment (as a matter of law without a trial because no disputed issues of material fact remained to be decided) because of the waiver. I've never run an event in Canada, but I'm guessing you sign the same waivers we do, or something similar.

Ask some PCA mucky-muck for a copy of the declarations page and policy that's used to insure events to see if everyone is covered, as they are here. You should also be able to talk to some Canadian PCA members who are also lawyers regarding the waiver issue.

P.S. - How do I find out more about this "progasm" thing? Sounds like something that would fill events instantly!

Bob Rouleau

Todd,

The prograsm has side effects. For instance a desire to smoke cigarettes instead of driving.

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

I would have thought the desire to smoke cigarettes would kick in after driving . . .