Chicago996

I used to a BMW 3 series before. Since new, it always had a problem with the rear speakers. Took it 2 times to Patrick BMW in Schaumburg, IL (one of the sh*tiest stealerships) and it still wasn't fixed. So when I got the call, I let the surveyors know exactly how I felt. A week later I get a call from the head service manager practically scolding me for giving that score (its 3 years ago so I don't remember the exact score). I was so taken back that there was no anonymity that I remember trying to justify my score to him. To this date, i regret doing that. Anyway, then I took the car back in when he said the BMW rep will in the dealership. I go there and some fat man who I assumed is the BMW rep introduces himself and proceeds to go out with a test drive with me. His hostile demeanor througout the drive makes me wonder whether he truly is the BMW rep so I ask and he proceeds to tell me that he is the head of something (maybe service) here. No BMW rep was scheduled to come that day. After that, he said they would try to fix it one more time but if it doesn't fix, then that's it. They are done and wouldn't look at it again as they are a dealership and it is there prerogative to turn away customers who they think are being unreasonable (forget the fact that in my brand new BMW the speakers continue to distort). They managed to make it better but I just never brought up that issue to them again. They are only 10 minutes from my place so it was much easier to get oil change, etc.. done there which they usually did good. Funny thing is after the episode with the speakers, I NEVER got a single survey from them even though I went back several times on different issues. I "learned" to be "nice" to the advisors and "build a relationship" with these weasels so my car would get the care it needed unless I wanted to drive an hour each way to get it done at the dealer that I bought it from.

P-car is the same way. I rank them excellent and have never given them loower than a 8 on any survey. The dealership I bought my car from new is too far so I use Barrington Motorwerks which has been a satisfactory relationship (could be better in terms of fixing creaks and groans which just come back no matter what).

This whole system sucks. The system should be anonymous at the dealership level but with enough metrics built in that the problem area can be pinpointed without fingerpointing towards the customer.

Toreador

All unsatisfactory scores could be eliminated by the dealer giving his own "survey" first, resolving any unsatisfactory items, then officially releasing the car and sending the real survey. I bet such a dealership would get only 10's.
Alas, such dream dealerships don't exist.

Torags

I brought this subject up to my daughter who used to be finance mgr in a couple of Toyota dealerships.

She laughed and told me the dealer would give buyer gift certificates to restaurants and other "vigs" to have the buyer bring in a blank signed survey. (which is a customer sellout)

Besides the manufacturer kickback in dollars, good performing dealerships would get bigger allotments of new models (which is a plum)

While there appears to be abuses, how else would you get dealers to give good service?

BRUCE

Torags

Some dealers provide good service just for the satisfaction and pride of doing a good job, just like some people in the rest of society. Did your daughter provide good service to her customers just out of fear?
I love people who slam car dealers, even after saying their daughter was one.

Torags

I agree and I use an excellent servicing dealer, Carlson, Palo Alto CA.

Do you condone the practice of buying blank surveys?

BTW, she doesn't do that anymore. Apparently, she got tired of burying people just to be #1 in the dealerships (she's competitive).

BRUCE

No, I do not believe in paying for positive surveys. I just think people expect a lot from dealers but don't give the appropriate level of respect.

A4EP

I agree with what Bruce said, "people expect a lot from dealers but don't give the appropriate level of respect."

Unfortunatly in this world praise is rarely given but critisim is commonplace. Being in sales I know that all to well, people forget about all of the positive things you do and only nitpick on the small mistakes that are made even if they are taken car of right away.

I think we all know the difficulties of operating a service based business, not everyone is a nice person to deal with...especially in the high end car market...and a lot of people simply belive that if they spend 100k on a car they deserve to be treated like kings and if they are treated like kings it still isn't good enough. Yes, it is appropriate to get better service if you are at a high class dealership but can everyone be happy all of the time...no. I believe many customers have such high expectations that it is impossible to fulfill.

For instance, how many parts go into a 996? It is logical for every dealership in the country to stock multiple units of every single part that goes into the car. No, but some people get pissed if the dealer does not have the part in stock. Does it matter if the part is overnighted from Germany? No, because it wasn't there and the car could not be done in one day. I have talked to many people who are like that, they don't give the dealer any slack.

But on the customer side there are many things that are simply not right either. My friend brought his BMW in for service, the service team ended up backing his car into a pole. Yes mistakes happen, yes they did go out of their way to get it fixed in a timely fashion but they still pulled him to the side and said they are taking care of it on their dime and need all top marks on the survey since they are handleing it so quick. Now that is just simply inappropriate, they damaged the body work of his car and expect him to give all top marks because they are fixing their mistake...rediculous.

I agree with what most people have said, there needs to be some flexibilty in the surveys so that you can rank a dealership correctly. If they go above and beyond for you then you should be able to rank them that way, if it is just a good job, then rank that way, if it's horrible then rank it and not be abused next time you give them business.

The way this system is set up is insane, but it won't change, the only thing that can change is the dealerships taking the constructive critisism and fixing the problems, not yelling at the customer for expressing their satisfation level. The dealer needs to understand that not everyone will give them praise, just as not everyone will pummel them in the survey. The majority of people will tell the truth, and that is what is needed for improving service levels. If a dealer cannot take constructive critisim and work to improve their levels of service then they don't deserve to get their bonus at the end of the year if the bonus goes for excellent service. Dealers need to stop blaming customers for bad feedback, there is a reason the feedback is bad, the dealer didn't do their job as they said they would.

My overall opinion is that if a dealer wants to improve their service then the number one thing to improve is telling the truth and communication. I can't count how many times the dealer says one thing and does another, promises the car will be done then it isn't but they never give you the truth, just keep leading you on. Never promise somehting you can't do...yet dealers do all the time. Or how the dealer says they will call you and they never do, or you call to get and update and they don't return you calls. Customer service is all about honesty and communication, and 90% of dealers have no clue how to return calls or tell the truth about the length of time the car will be there. Fix that and those survey scores will be a lot higher even when you mess up.

A4EP

2002 C4S, SG/BLK

MKW

I wonder if you could take this whole quality survey industry up with your state's attorney general as a case of organized extortion from the top down. Think about it ... survey firm is paid ( by manufacturer ? dealer ? ) to develop and administer a survey instrument that instead of acheiving the goal of continuous quality improvement in the measured system , is instead punitively individualized and identified to specific employee , consumer and event. Results in that not so subtle " whisper " that if the customer doesn't help the employee keep his job/meet a bonus , he may get screwed in return in unknown future way . Survey company principals get rich, manufacturer and dealer get good survey results and future falsely glowing ad copy, bad employees get bonuses still and the guy who wrote the $100,00K check gets it bent over without any lube

BRUCE

A4EP,

Very well said.

MKW,

Great solution. Just what we need, another law suit.

ben in lj

"Great solution. Just what we need, another law suit."

have a better one?

MKW

I'm only expressing what I have experienced in all my purchasing/ service experiences in the past decade with several high end brands at many dealerships. I am NOT advocating lawsuits, just pointing out something in this whole auto ownership experience that has bugged me since I ( and I'm sure you all ) started getting all those surveys and follow up calls from them all and realizing what is really going on . Just suggesting that the consumer's frank input should only be known to surveyor and manufacturer but NOT the dealer/employee. But let's be real- the dealerships will not stand for that for the reasons I already stated above.I will never answer these surveys for this reason. When I have had a problem, I have spoken directly to the people involved and their supervisors.

Torags

While I don't like some settlements in many lawsuits and the hugh fees trail attys get (I am not one):

It's hard not to believe;

The settlements act as deterants, and therefore improve the "breed". If the "breed" isn't improved, at least they (companies) disclose the potential problems.

In the retail sector, Nordstroms and Lexis has revolutionized customer service. In the beginning of Lexis, there were people who would not pay a premium (for the same benefits of others) simply because it was a Toyota. The customer service helped to turn buyers attention away from that issue.

The Lexis customer service "legend" now allows buyers anywhere in the country, to expect & to get the same high quality of service.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could expect that nationwide from PCNA.

I ask contributers on this board who are associated with the dealers:

Do you have a customer service educational program for new hires & one for old (with competence testing)?

Do you have an onsite orientation tape of new models or car features? (with competence testing).

Many times dealer new hires (sales/service reps) have neither customer service skills nor mechanical skills - and many don't give a sh*t and just look for the next commission or "vig".

The new marketplace demands more.......

A4EP

We definitly don't need another lawsuit to fix a problem. I am so damn sick of people suing for everything. Oh, I spilled coffee on myself, and it was hot, now I want 50million. I got yelled at by my teacher in school, it made me feel bad, I want 1 million dollars for pain and suffering. I mean seriously this country is sue crazy and it does nothing. Do you really think frivilous lawsuits will encourage corporations to change...NO.

MKW, The flaw in your argument is that the automobile manufactuer is not part of the screw job that we are seeing. What is the number 1 thing that maufactuerers try to get from customers...brand loyalty! Now, if we can sell someone one car, great but we really make money if they come back to our brand for their next 5 cars. Building the customer base is the future of any auto manufacturer.

Now, in your senerio the manufacturer is in on this point scam. Well I don't see how they could be. First of all when you get shoddy service on your expensive car you begin to get a bad feeling for that brand. Most people don't see the difference between dealers, only brands. So for a manufacturer to build their base they need to provide good service. The service trend was begun by the Japanese marks such as Lexus and the other luxo brands have lost considerable sales because of the Lexus level of service. Now, what would they gain by encouraging dealers to bribe customers? Nothing! Their service would not go up, they would get irritated customers and in the end they would be paying gigantic sums of money to the dealers for increasing their service standards when it is not really done, which is the entire purpose of the program.

The manufacturers need to fix this problem. They have got to know what is going on with the buying of the surveys, and the harrassment if you give bad marks. And that might be why only Excellents are good enough because since they need real feedback, and they know dealers are buying surveys under the table then they also know they will never get a real unbiased response on the service, and that may be why anything under all 10's is chastised. So more than likely the dealers, by buying surveys have screwed themselves because now they are punnished by every negative one.

The only solution is for the Manufacturer to ease their program for the dealer and then guarntee that the dealer stops trying to influence the surveys. But will that ever happen, no, because the dealer will always do the dishonest thing of influencing as long as they don't get caught.

In summary, the entire system is just screwed up Anyone want to set up a consulting firm to analyize the problems and come up with a valid solution for the auto industry...we might be able to cash in

A4EP

2002 C4S, SG/BLK

Torags

I think you need a police organization,

with the punishment being 2 years working as a service rep at a Hyundie dealership.

MKW

A4EP , If you read my two posts, we agree mostly . The problem is MOSTLY at the dealership level , but there is a bit of " looking the other way " on the manufacturers part , too. Reason is, they know that it may be years or never that certain dealers in certain cities will get their act together but in the nearsighted short term , for the manuf execs moving up the corporate ladder , dealers buying good ratings mean more advancements for themselves -even helps them get a job with a competitor next year - nevermind what it might do to their ex-employers brand equity. Once you are in this Biz, it's all a bunch of metal to move out the door for most of them. When they daydream, it's not about cars i can assure you.