Your right brother, found an excellent article on this subject that stats...

"According to information published about the Eisen IMS Class Action Lawsuit, the single row IMS bearing used in 2000 through 2005 model years is reported to have an 8% failure rate, versus less than 1% with the dual row IMS bearing."

http://theimssolution.com/ims-101/

Thanks Jaetee, I've been watching that one.

Just got back from Atl test driving the 04 C4S....put 65 miles on it, and had a PPI performed.

The C4S's handling was downright awesome, and it destroys my old M3 in that category.

The car drove fantastic, checked out well, but still seems a bit high at $29500

 

Yea, I don't think you'll find a well sorted lower mileage C4S for much lower than $30K. If your budget is less then look at the C2. Lower weight and a great performer, especially if you want to take it to the track.

 

I'd say that's true...based on my my nationwide 2004 C4S price search....34-35k seems avg. for one with low to mid mileage. I appreciate your opinion on that.

That said, this one has 59k on it, and the PPI made clear that it's due for it's 60k service which was quoted at $1200.

Combine that with a some worn areas in the interior, a few small chips on the exterior, and a last minute break down of the sun roof AFTER the PPI...go figure. Not technically a break down but rather it started falling apart. Some kinda o ring was completely coming out, and perhaps other stuff was loose.

I did notice that the car was noisy like it had a slight crack in a window while cruising on the interstate...so I'd have to repair that to. Knowing these types of cars that could run quite a bit.

Can anybody weigh in on M car brakes vs Pcar brakes....that's the only area that is a glaring nod to BMW. Perhaps it's just the small sample size of three 911s I've driven, but I find them to be lacking a little bit.

 

Unless you need all wheel drive stay with the C2 and save yourself money, or at least have the money in your pocket for upgrades or repairs. The brake difference between your M car and the Porsches you test driven could be many things. The pads and how old or worn they are, same with the rotors. A C4S has more weight to stop than a straight C2. It has bigger brakes but that gets eaten up by the weight. Its good to see you starting to pass on cars as the hunger turns into discriminating taste. Enjoy the seach and the eventual buy will be much much sweeter.

 

Will you ever be taking it to the track or Autocross? Or is this strictly a daily driver? How important are feature and creative comforts to you vs raw driving experience?

 

Thanks for the advice on the c4s vs c2 topic, and I'd be more than happy I'm sure with any proper 911 996 at this point. That said, the enhanced body style, and wide body really grew on me. Performance is number one for me, but aesthetics are still very important to me.

The PPI revealed that the brakes were 90% good so I guess its just a different feel to pcar brakes that I have to get use to over time.

I'm trying to enjoy the search, but honestly I'm ready for an asskicking 996 like all you guys already have

I've never done track, or autocross, so this car is just for my low mileage daily driving. The raw driving experience is definitely most important to me.

 

The '99s are the best performers. Light and nimble and pull very hard in the upper RPMs. These are going to give you the closest thing to an old school Porsche feel. No traction control (except with the LSDs) and basic amenities. The C4S is definitely the sexiest looking and will be more comfortable and have more amenities for daily driving. If you ever start getting into really tracking a car, the RWD C2 are preferable. If you are shopping, I would at least test drive a 99 C2 before making your decision.

And yes, people give me crap about being a '99 zealot. But you like what you like. Out of my multiple AMGs, '11 M3, and '09 911TT, the '99 C2 is my favorite that I've owned.

 

This is fantastic information, and the exact reason why I'm spending so much time on this forum. I'm searching for 996 zealots

All great points, and I've read before that the older C2s were the best track cars. Just love the way the C4S looks, and your right it appears to be one of the sexiest looking cars around.

I spent all day yesterday looking at cars, saw 25+ Bentleys, 2 GT-Rs, Several M cars, tons of AMG, a few astons, a few Maseratis, etc....and the 996s still look every bit as exotic, and beautiful as those other cars do, all the while being at least a decade plus old. Kinda a timeless design if you ask me.

 

Did ya find one yet???

http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/cto/5837072979.html

 

Hey friend, thanks for keeping me in mind

To answer the question, no the eagle hasn't landed in the nest yet, still on the hunt. Still on my mind everyday though unfortunately.

That is truly a beautiful car, love the yellow calipers. Seems like a great price too. My only issue is, and it's a rather large one....the automatic.

 

I've gone through this recently, I did somethings right I missed on others.

If you don't care about the looks of the Mark I (99-01) or Mark II (02+), the 99 model seems to be one to have. The earlier the better. Make sure the original engine is in it and look for the 4 spoke steering wheel. If you’re going to track regularly, I’d agree with Slacker. But know there are some mods you might want to do (e.g. oil pan). Also, there’s definitely a selection bias, but there seems a be a decent amount of horror stories on this board about tracking cars. If you’re looking occasionally tracking, some twisties, mostly putting around…just get the one that looks best to you. 2003+ audio (MOS) system appears to be a serious pain to upgrade – so if you’re thinking about stereo/nav upgrades, maybe stick with <=2002.

If I had to do it over again, here would be my order of preference (I prefer the look of the Mark 2 – so the IMS Solution / Retrofit is must for me IMO):

1. $5 to $8K roller (car with blown motor) + $20K Flat 6 Innovations (Raby) engine: Addresses all the common issues with the M96 engine (and it’s basically a brand new engine). Plus you could look into 3.8 or 4.0 options. This will take several months though.

2. Clean car with LN IMS Solution or Retrofit done at an LN IMS Solution certified shop with documentation of Pre-qualification and swap done. Plus all the while you’re in there work done – RMS, clutch, flywheel, AOS, water pump, thermostat, spin-on filter, etc. Newer tires and brakes would be a plus – negotiate down if they need to be replaced. Retrofits have a service life of ~50K miles – so ask how many miles on the retrofit if pertinent. I don't know how realistic this is - best chance is buying off this website.

3. Clean car with good service history and original IMSB. I’d do a beefed up PPI that includes LN IMS Pre-Qualification, borescope, AOS measurements, compression tests – be prepared to pay extra for this PPI. Be prepared to pay $5 to $10K in preventative maintenance (i.e. the stuff mentioned in Option 2). Get a quote for all this stuff from your PPI and see how much the seller is willing to split with you. This is what I did - but didn't execute very well.

Good luck! Also, high mileage on these cars shouldn't deter you as long as they've been taken care of - but will likely make resale more difficult.

 

Mrjonger, that's as good of information as I could ask for...really detailed stuff, that took some time and effort to put down to text. Big THANKS

Option 1 is realistically more than I'd want to undertake at this time in my life.

Option 2 sounds awesome outside of the high mileage like you said....also finding the right purist that has taken care of the stuff you want in combo with the particulars you want on your 911 makes it a hard commodity to find.

Here is the best I've found for option 2:
http://nashville.craigslist.org/cto/5783650160.html


Option 3 sounds great, just slightly less so than option 2 for me at this moment....doing all the work myself as a newb(not actually myself, but sourcing the right shop) could be both costly, and ultimately wrong.

Here is the best I've found for option 3. I tried doing exactly what you said, negotiate the things I'd be doing right away that would add up to several thousand quickly. The dealer didn't seem to want to take anything off for some things that I believe he should have. It had flaws, but it was beautiful, drove tight, and passed a solid euro car shop PPI. Price just seemed high to me.

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/wat/ctd/5817821347.html



What car did you ultimately go with, and have you already put the coin into the replacement parts, and upgrades?

Thanks again for your time.

 

I went with a 2002 C2 Cab with 19k miles – which is not necessarily a good thing. These cars are meant to be driven. I was looking for something with 50 – 75K miles, but got lured by the low miles and the recommendation of the Porsche specialist doing the PPI. As such, I spent way too much than I needed to, but oh well, live and learn.

My estimates from the PPI to make the car a reliable daily was $6K – the seller and I split 50/50. But he was asking way too much, so I ended up overpaying anyway. Then the indy found the clutch and flywheel needed be done when he pulled the transmission to do the IMSB Solution. All in, I dropped $9K in service + $1.5K PPI. At the end of the day, it would have been cheaper for me to get a roller + Raby engine.

Others may disagree, but for a PPI, I think you will always want to at least have the oil and filter checked for metal debris. Leak down would also be preferable. Below is the PPI for my car. It’s overkill, but I’m a noob at this stuff and I wanted a list of things to keep an eye on. With respect to reputable shops, I'd start with LN preferred/certified: http://imsretrofit.com/preferred-installers/

Engine Compression Test Results (OKAY):
1) 250 psi
2) 240 psi
3) 245 psi
4) 245 psi
5) 250 psi
6) 235 psi

Engine Leak-Down Test Results (OKAY):
1) 5%
2) 7%
3) 7%
4) 10%
5) 7%
6) 5%

Tires Information (GREAT):
Left front tire is from 04th week of 2013(7/32” remaining) 35.50psi (Spec 36 psi)
Right front tire is from 04th week of 2013 (7/32” remaining) 35.50 psi (Spec 36 psi)
Left rear tire is from 44th week of 2012 (4/32” remaining) 43.50 psi (Spec 44 psi)
Right rear tire is from 06th week of 2013 (4/32” remaining) 43.50 psi (Spec 44 psi)

Brakes Information (GOOD)

Brake pads information:
Front brake pads have 7mm remaining (GOOD)
Rear brake pads have 7mm remaining (GOOD)
Brake rotors information:
Left front brake rotor at 26.80mm (OKAY)
Right front brake rotor at 26.80mm (OKAY)
Left rear brake rotor at 23.40mm (OKAY)
Right rear brake rotor at 23.30mm (OKAY)
Front brake rotors minimum thickness is 26.00mm (NOTE)
Rear brake rotors minimum thickness is 22.00mm

Check Over Inspection (LIST #1):
-Radiators need debris cleared out*
-Coolant flush recommended*
-Gearbox oil never serviced – recommended*
-4% water contamination in brake fluid! - Flush overdue*
-Battery seems fairly new – low on charge*
-There appears to have been NO previous accidents
-Various very slight paint scratches and patina (touch-ups)
-All forward facing paint surfaces have slight patina (stone & sand damage)
-Service appears to be due
-Engine oil filter had very slight amount of metal debris-normal
-Engine oil filter housing needs replacement*
-Engine oil service due?*
-Various imperfections on all wheels
-Right cabriolet top roll-over reset trim cap missing*
-Right A-Pillar outer windscreen seal faded
-RF wheelhouse air duct broken?

Check Over Inspection (LIST #2):
-Porsche hood crest slightly bent
-Clutch slightly stiff – due in near future#
-Left A-Pillar leather scratched
-All shocks at 75-85%
-Ashtray removed – aftermarket insert installed
-Aftermarket ashtray delete panel cracked
-Third brake light seal cut – loose
-Coolant reservoir recommended – discolored (leaking?)*
-Coolant cap recommended (leaking? - age?)*
-Steering wheel stitching loose – frayed
-Battery discharged – charge recommended*
-Alternator weak - charge battery before further diagnosis:
12.20V= Heavy Load – 13.20V= No Load
-Front cowl drains dirty – leaves*
-Various door dings and dents
-Front shock bump stops disintegrated

Check Over Inspection (LIST #3):
-Air Oil Separator leaking oil (WAIT)
-Air Oil Separator test result at 5.80” H20 (GREAT)
-Gearbox feels good, all synchronizers okay with no excessive noise
-Coolant water-pump original – recommended*
-Coolant thermostat recommended*
-Serpentine drive belt looks dry – recommended*
-Bank #2 (Driver’s side) exhaust tail pipe tip rattles (Recall?)
-Sheet-metal screws through passenger floorboard (Aftermarket electrical)
-Satellite radio antenna mount in front trunk not desirable
-Aftermarket stereo head unit – FYI
-Wheel locks missing – replacement lug bolts not matching*
-Slight oil seeping originating at gearbox – engine mating area (RMS? - IMS? - OTHER?)#
-Lower edge of front bumper scraped
-Slight scraping on engine crankcase and engine mount
-Left license plate light broken*

Check Over Inspection (LIST #4):
-Right rear taillight lens & wiring harness previous damaged but has been repaired
-A/C Air vents outlet temperature at 42.1°f (GREAT)
-Front hood solenoid previously replaced (OKAY)
-Bank #2 (Passenger side) Camshaft cover previously resealed (OKAY)
-Fuel cap tether broken*
-Interior cabin micro pollen filter fairly clean (NOTE)
-Right cowl cover screw missing (We located it in the cowl drain)
-Spare wheel loose (TIGHTENED)
-Driver’s door has rattle noise when closing door
-Gearbox has previously been removed (NOTE)
-OBD-2 Monitors set= Ready for emissions test
-IMS Bearing type? IMS Bearing UPDATE RECOMMENDED!#
-Parking brake slightly out of adjustment but okay to leave alone
-Both bumpers appear to have been repainted
-Broken ignition coil bolt on #5 coil*
-Coolant level was at low mark (We topped it off)

DME (Digital Motronics Control Unit) Information:
Operating hours counter: 835.7 (23.79 Ave-Mph = OKAY)
Number of Ignitions in Range #1:“99” = GREAT
Number of Ignitions in Range #2:“0” = GREAT
Camshaft deviation numbersare GREAT:
Bank #1: 0.55°
Bank #2: 1.50°

Control Unit Interrogation Information (GREAT):
*DME: NO Faults
*ABS: NO Faults
*Instrument Cluster: NO Faults
*HVAC: NO Faults
*Seat Memory: NO Faults
*Alarm System: 1 Fault – 54 Radio Receiver defective (Aftermarket Radio)
*Air Bag: NO Faults
*Convertible Top: NO Faults
*Roll-Over Protection: NO Faults
*HBA(Headlight Beam Adjustment): NO Faults

Paint thickness readings (These look GOOD): Was an image with dozens of paint thickness reading notes

 

Holy Smokes!!!! Now that's a gold medal winning PPI right there! Gold medal price too!

My PPI was on the other end of the spectrum. Cost was zero. Mechanic knew I was shopping for a 996 with it's original IMSB, which he was going to swap (along with all of the other goodies). The seller of the car I ended up buying was an hour away from me and we agreed to meet at my mechanic's shop which was a half-way spot. He had his wife follow him there in another car and they ended up running errands while the Mech and I test drove it, got under it, checked oil, suspension, steering, etc...

When they got back to the shop we made a deal and he ended up riding home with his wife. I started shopping for parts.

Back to shopping for the OP: You can see car fax in the auction listing and the dealer has a make offer option. Car has been bounced around after first owner, but it looks like it can be had for less than 1/2 of the 4S's previously mentioned:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-...m=262412163707

It's a '99 and has the early 4-spoke wheel, so it might be early build code and thus one of "THE" 996 cars to have (according to Jake Raby and Slakker)! Definitely worth consideration IMHO. Assuming it checks out... Buy it, put in a new clutch, brakes, IMS Guardian and LN spin-on filter adapter and you'll have less than $20k in your daily driver and can stash the other $10k in case something happens to the engine, or use it for mods and upgrades.

 

Mrjonger, that is one in depth car inspection! Fantastic. Who did the write up?