A790

Hello everyone;

I am looking at a 2002 C4S wide body and I was hoping that someone with a bit more knowledge could help me out.

Was the wide body a selectable option, or were all C4S's wide body?

Should I find RUF modifications valuable? This may sound like a stupid question, but I don't consider the typical mods (springs, intakes, etc.) "value adders". However, I know almost nothing about RUF and am unsure of how to place their worth.

The specific car I am looking at is this: http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Porsche/...howcpo=ShowCPO.

I have already done a good once over of the car as well as a lengthy test drive, and am having it PPI'd before I buy. However, an inspection isn't free so I want to have a clear picture of what the car is before I move forward.

The owner couldn't give me any specific information re: the RMS or IMS but has the complete service history so I am going to check that out as well.

This would be my first Porsche and I am not as educated on the car/options as I'd like to be. Searching the forums to answer the wide body question showed me lots of threads about wheels... lol.

Thank you in advance. I am hoping to submit an offer before Thursday.

inlandsurf

Yes, with the 996 all C4s's have the wide body from the turbo. Turbo body, turbo all wheel drive, turbo brakes. Not the turbo engine

Can't speak the value of the additions, but after exhaust has a value assuming you like the sound and feel.

And without knowing how the price of Canadian cars compare, that seems like a high price for that car. that converts to ~39k USA. Crazy high. . 27-30 is what you should expect to pay without the service history.

And get the PPI!~!~

jumper5836

That car is probably worth around 22k trade in value. The Ruf mods are great quality stuff nothing wrong with it.
Personally, I picked up my Turbo for less then that C4S with 82k on it. I think for that price I would be looking for a Turbo which they are nearly the same body wise but has a much better and reliable engine.

roadsession

Looks great ruf is premium stuff - if you like and it and car checks out and you can afford it go for it

Sniff

For the normally aspirated 993 and 996's, the "S" designation meant widebody. So you could have 2WD widebody Carreras (Carrera S) and 4WD widebodies (Carrera 4S). The "4" designation simply meant four-wheel drive.

This changed with the 997's, as you need to have the 4WD version (Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S) to get the widebody in a normally aspirated car. The "S" in a 997 just means the higher-power version and has no bearing on the size of the sheetmetal in the rear.

Clear as mud? I pulled this info straight from the Porsche 911 Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S Product Information Manual (dated July 2005).

Sean

Dennis C

Except that there's no such thing as a RWD Carrera S in the 996 line. The S is only available as a AWD Carrera 4S. It available as a MK II car only, model years 2002 - 2005.

JohnCK2014

If the owner couldn't be specific about the IMSB, it probably hasn't been done. I think the price is a bit high. But I don't value the Ruf upgrades that much. Someone else might.

All of the C4S are built on the same chasis as the Turbos. They look just like the turbos except they don't have the inlets on the sides for air intake for the intercoolers. I think the 996 C4S is one of the most beautiful 911s ever built. I am biased since I bought one this spring.

When you look at the maintenance records see when the last major service was done. Generally the spark plugs and the big service is done every 30K. This one has 60,000 Kilometers which is around 36,000 miles. It should have had a big service at 30,000 miles. If it didn't, that is a red flag because it will need to be done soon and it makes you wonder why the owner waited so long.

Beyond that, this car has clearly been a garage queen. That isn't a bad thing except the garage queens are the ones known for suffering the IMSB failure. You can do the clutch and the upgraded bearing for around $2,400. At a minimum I would knock the price of doing that off the price of the car. The clutch is probably good but it is so easy to change once you get in to upgrade the IMSB you might as well.

The other issue is that I am told the bigger wheels hurt the handling and ride of the car. I don't know. I have only driven ones with the standard wheels. But if you look, there are several threads on here that say so. It may not bother you. But if you can drive a similar model with the smaller wheels before you buy this and see if the wheel size bothers you. If it does, it is not a deal killer. You can always stick those wheels on Ebay and then take the money and put regular wheels on the car. There is always someone who wants the big ones.

Beyond that, I can't say enough about the 996 C4S. My car is the most incredible piece of kit I have ever owned and there isn't a day I drive it that I am not incredibly happy I own it. And for what it is worth, if there is any N/A 996 that will appreciate it will be the C4S. Even the haters have to admit it is a pretty kick *** car.

To give you some perspective, I paid $33,900 for mine. It had just had its major service and had an upgraded IMSB bearing. But it didn't have any of the RUF upgrades like this one and it has 55,200 miles, which is significantly more than this one. I probably paid a little bit more than I needed to but I got a car with an upgraded IMSB and a complete maintenance history. So far so good. All it has needed was an AC recharge.

I don't think this car is too far out of line in price. It is a bit high, but a lot of people love the RUF upgrades and will pay for them I think. I would low ball him and offer $38K if the IMSB has been upgraded. If it hasn't, I would offer $36K. Regardless, I wouldn't pay over $40K for it if it has its original IMSB. I think the issue is a bit overplayed. But even I think it probably isn't overplayed with low miliage cars. You don't want to be stuck with a $10,000 rebuild. Just get it upgraded so you don't have to worry. And then drive the living hell out of it and have fun because the cars seem to be happier and do better that way.

kromdom

NB = 69.7 inches wide
WB = 72 inches wide

Not sure sure if OP already knew

A790

Thanks for the great information everyone.

I agree that the price is high. This car is approximately $8,000 more expensive than the closest C4S in a 500km radius so I intend to negotiate.

Also glad for the clarification on the wide body. I found that a little confusing at first. Glad to know that any C4S I look at will be wide body. Really love the look (am looking at a 997 C4S tomorrow but it's $77,000 vs $42,000).

I am getting him to send me the option sheet so I can exactly what's in the car.

I am hesitate to look at a turbo as my first Porsche as I come from muscle car territory ('05, '13 Mustang GT) and import territory ('91 MR2 turbo I had hopped up to 375ish hp).

Hilariously, I have a maximum budget of around $75k CAD and only drove the 996 C4S yesterday to see how it compares to a 997. I haven't driven a 997 yet (am looking at an '08 C4S tomorrow) but it will have to be vastly improved for me to plop down an extra $15-$25k compared to a 996.

I was thinking of a 997 turbo as a second buy once I got to know the Porsche brand a little more, the cars, etc.

Thanks again for the great information. I think I'm going to like it here

jumper5836

I would look at 997.2's for that budget. 09 and newer has a new more reliable engine

A790

True, though just because I have the budget doesn't mean I need to spend it. My wife and I just got married on Monday so my logic is spend $35 -$45k and pocket the money I would have spent and throw it into savings, etc.

I have a huge hard-on for the 991 C4S's so the plan is to move into one of those in 2 or 3 years anyway.

JohnCK2014

It depends on how much you want to spend versus how much you have to spend. All things being equal, a 996.2 would be awfully nice. You can get 09 C4S for under 60K and have nor IMSB issues or deal with any "but you have the unloved Porsche" or "what about those headlights" nonsense. To me the 911 gets a bit more sterile and further away from what it originally was with each new generation. So, I am not too heartbroken about not buying a 997.2.

One thing I would not do is buy a 997.1 N/A. They still have the IMSB issue and unlike the 996s, it requires breaking open the engine block to upgrade the IMSB. On a 996 you can upgrade and replace the IMSB every time you replace the clutch and just treat it like an ordinary maintenance item. I would either go for a 997.2 or save your shekels and take the 996.

Sniff

Just to be clear, the 997.1 (first generation 997's) received an enlarged IMS bearing in the late 2005 timeframe. The 2005 997's still had the same style IMS bearing as the 996's until this change occurred. If you are considering looking into the 997 world, I would recommend looking for a 2006 or newer. True, this enlarged IMS bearing can't be as easily changed like the ones in the 996's, but they aren't prone to the same issues as the earlier designs. In fact there is an entire thread devoted to tracking IMS bearing failures in the 997, and there doesn't appear to be very many cases at all. When the 997.2 was introduced in 2009, they eliminated the IMS bearing altogether.

Remember when it comes to IMS bearing issues in either the 996 or 997, all you hear on these forums are the bad news stories. After all, that's what these forums are for. You never here stories like, "Hey, I am having no issues with my car . . . everything is fine." Unfortunately the few bad apples out there have painted an undeserved picture with respect to these cars (IMHO).

If your ultimate goal is to get into a 991, then perhaps you should go with the 996 as they have had the most time to depreciate. Prices for the 991 will certainly decline in 2-3 years, as will the 997 (but not as much). From a financial standpoint, you may be able to keep more of your money in your pocket by driving the oldest car first and waiting for the newest cars to come down in price.

Sean

peteb3

I assume you're in Calgary
The going rate for a 996 C4s manual transmission with 50-80k km on it is $36-38k
For 100k km plus it's in the $28-32k range and goes down from there
That's for private sales
Dealers are more

I think there's wiggle room on the one in the trader with all the Ruf goodies that you list
Similar car with similar mods sold recently for $38k

Only problem tight now is that there are not many for sale, the other ones are automatics

Sniff

Good point. For some reason the writers of the Porsche 911 Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S Product Information Manual (dated July 2005) didn't seem interested in making that distinction. I guess they too get confused over the countless versions of the 911 that are out there.

Sean