What winter DD for $15k?
04-04-2014, 10:26 AM
#47
Drifting
Any cheap FWD car with an awesome set of winter tires. And a good deal of caution.
Or, you can go for a domestic 4WD SUV with a good set of snows. But that will take a toll on your self-esteem.
Winter cars are, by design, disposable. Either through accidents or corrosion. I wouldn't invest too much in them.
Or, you can go for a domestic 4WD SUV with a good set of snows. But that will take a toll on your self-esteem.
Winter cars are, by design, disposable. Either through accidents or corrosion. I wouldn't invest too much in them.
Both will "get up and go" easier, more quickly than a RWD (other than the few rear engine RWD vehicles), but once underway you want to dedicate front traction, MARGINAL traction, to lateral control.
All in all, I'll stick with RWD or even rear biased AWD.
The only FWD based vehicles that can do that have the SH-AWD system.
04-04-2014, 10:29 AM
#48
Drifting
So a bit off porsche topic, but my winter DD and airport car got totaled last week after I rear ended a Suburban at 5 mph. And I need to replace it.
I live in the Midwest so we get a fair amount of snow.
Originally I had a 2001 A6 4.2, which other than being old and parts breaking was a great car that I now wish I had kept, traded it in November last year for a Lexus GS450h, that I really liked, very quiet, fast and with winter tires was ok in the snow but not great. This car just got totaled so looking for another.
I don't really want to spend more than $15k, but tempted to spend more for a newer car.
I was thinking:
1. Buy another A6 beater for under $7k drive it and take the risk it breaks down or has issues' 4.2, heated steering wheel...nice
2. Buy a 2007-08 newer shape A6 for around $15k, but I don't really love the shape. Like the heated steering wheel though
3. Buy a 2005 S4 cabriolet, good fun in the summer with the kids and still great in the winter
4. Spend $25k on a B7 S4 cab as I think they look better
5. Buy a $10k 2.0T a4 saloon and save the gas!
6. E500 4 matic for around $15k, lots of luxury, but again potential for big bills
As you can see I'm leaning towards Audi's as the Quattro in winter is a no brianer, after the GS450 I want to go with 4WD.
As mentioned for 5-6 months of the year this will be my winter DD, driving through the salt and crap we have on roads here, I also will be leaving it at the airport once a month as I don't like leaving the 911 so it doesn't get the doors dinked. And finally I need to cart 2 kids around at various times for sports (I say this as I was tempted to get an old boxter! at one stage).
Any insight would be appreciated, I am genuinely looking for input
I live in the Midwest so we get a fair amount of snow.
Originally I had a 2001 A6 4.2, which other than being old and parts breaking was a great car that I now wish I had kept, traded it in November last year for a Lexus GS450h, that I really liked, very quiet, fast and with winter tires was ok in the snow but not great. This car just got totaled so looking for another.
I don't really want to spend more than $15k, but tempted to spend more for a newer car.
I was thinking:
1. Buy another A6 beater for under $7k drive it and take the risk it breaks down or has issues' 4.2, heated steering wheel...nice
2. Buy a 2007-08 newer shape A6 for around $15k, but I don't really love the shape. Like the heated steering wheel though
3. Buy a 2005 S4 cabriolet, good fun in the summer with the kids and still great in the winter
4. Spend $25k on a B7 S4 cab as I think they look better
5. Buy a $10k 2.0T a4 saloon and save the gas!
6. E500 4 matic for around $15k, lots of luxury, but again potential for big bills
As you can see I'm leaning towards Audi's as the Quattro in winter is a no brianer, after the GS450 I want to go with 4WD.
As mentioned for 5-6 months of the year this will be my winter DD, driving through the salt and crap we have on roads here, I also will be leaving it at the airport once a month as I don't like leaving the 911 so it doesn't get the doors dinked. And finally I need to cart 2 kids around at various times for sports (I say this as I was tempted to get an old boxter! at one stage).
Any insight would be appreciated, I am genuinely looking for input
04-04-2014, 12:42 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
FWD or front bias AWD vehicles are patently UNSAFE, even HAZARDOUS for the very same reason a 4WD/4X4 should NEVER be driven "at speed" locked in one of those modes.
Both will "get up and go" easier, more quickly than a RWD (other than the few rear engine RWD vehicles), but once underway you want to dedicate front traction, MARGINAL traction, to lateral control.
All in all, I'll stick with RWD or even rear biased AWD.
The only FWD based vehicles that can do that have the SH-AWD system.
Both will "get up and go" easier, more quickly than a RWD (other than the few rear engine RWD vehicles), but once underway you want to dedicate front traction, MARGINAL traction, to lateral control.
All in all, I'll stick with RWD or even rear biased AWD.
The only FWD based vehicles that can do that have the SH-AWD system.
RWD and no weight over the rear wheels. You can't find a worse vehicle for the snow.
04-04-2014, 02:40 PM
#50
Here are my thoughts on what I think wwest is coming from and I could be totally wrong.
I have or had every single drivetrain configuration possible(currently have fwd-ff, rwd-fr/rr, awd in my stable). When making a turn in snow/rain, on my FWD I would most likely understeer and plow into a tree or go up the curb and lawn for example, where as my rwd car would just spin 90-360 degrees in place without plowing into anything. RWD or any form of sophisticated awd(I have an MDX w/sh-awd) system would let you turn in(sometimes too much) which is better than going straight via heavy understeer and plowing into something.
I have or had every single drivetrain configuration possible(currently have fwd-ff, rwd-fr/rr, awd in my stable). When making a turn in snow/rain, on my FWD I would most likely understeer and plow into a tree or go up the curb and lawn for example, where as my rwd car would just spin 90-360 degrees in place without plowing into anything. RWD or any form of sophisticated awd(I have an MDX w/sh-awd) system would let you turn in(sometimes too much) which is better than going straight via heavy understeer and plowing into something.
04-04-2014, 02:45 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
^. That is true if no brakes are applied due to excessive speed. In a scenario where a problem like this arises, it is because one is going in hot. Understeer will come in play regardless from FWD or locking up front wheels.
Moral if the story. Proper winter tires for any vehicle driven during the winter.
Moral if the story. Proper winter tires for any vehicle driven during the winter.
04-04-2014, 03:02 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
Here are my thoughts on what I think wwest is coming from and I could be totally wrong.
I have or had every single drivetrain configuration possible(currently have fwd-ff, rwd-fr/rr, awd in my stable). When making a turn in snow/rain, on my FWD I would most likely understeer and plow into a tree or go up the curb and lawn for example, where as my rwd car would just spin 90-360 degrees in place without plowing into anything. RWD or any form of sophisticated awd(I have an MDX w/sh-awd) system would let you turn in(sometimes too much) which is better than going straight via heavy understeer and plowing into something.
I have or had every single drivetrain configuration possible(currently have fwd-ff, rwd-fr/rr, awd in my stable). When making a turn in snow/rain, on my FWD I would most likely understeer and plow into a tree or go up the curb and lawn for example, where as my rwd car would just spin 90-360 degrees in place without plowing into anything. RWD or any form of sophisticated awd(I have an MDX w/sh-awd) system would let you turn in(sometimes too much) which is better than going straight via heavy understeer and plowing into something.
04-04-2014, 05:59 PM
#54
One's preference will depend on if you have Jenson's driving style or Lewis's.
04-04-2014, 06:44 PM
#55
Three Wheelin'
Only on the internet you have RWD cars being touted superior to FWD and AWD in the winter condition, and oversteer being more desirable in the adverse condition to understeer.
FWD is safe for a reason. With proper winter tires, any understeer you encounter is easily corrected by slowing down. Understeer is easy to correct and much easier to manage than oversteer. There is a BIG reason why 911 now has the ridiculous oversized tires on the rear and why all German RWD cars have tons of ABS/EPS/Traction/ESR systems. The reason for that is that 95% of people cannot handle and control oversteer in the critical situation.
I know that everyone on the internet is an ex-F1 or ex-WRC or professional stunt drive or Stig's cousin who calmly guides his car through ice covered turns at full lock while going 120MPH and sipping the coffee. However, outside of internet most people can't recover an oversteer situation in the RWD car. Old 911s were widow markers because very few people have skills and abilities to properly handle the RWD vehicles at the limit. Adverse road conditions only add another level of difficulty to driving the RWD car.
FWD or AWD with snow tires will always be superior to RWD car on the snow tires. Anyone with basic common sense can keep a FWD or AWD car from understeering in turns, watch your speed and that is it. With RWD car, you have deficient traction when starting to move and have to be extremely careful with throttle in the turns; lift oversteer and throttle induced oversteer are easy to provoke on any RWD vehicle in adverse conditions. Most people cannot correct it, as basic reaction for the average driver is to slam the brakes in the critical situation.
04-04-2014, 07:10 PM
#56
2006 530xi. They don't rust. Not a bad interior. Without the turbos the engines will go for a few hundred thousand miles. Unstoppable in the snow with snow tires. Plenty of room for the kids.
04-04-2014, 07:11 PM
#57
Btw the real widow maker is the GT2 as it was 430+hp rwd WITHOUT traction control. I don't have ***** big enough to drive that thing given my judgement or there lack of...
04-04-2014, 07:41 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
+1 on the abilities of Acura's SH-AWD.
And, there is real truth to the concept of an AWD being able to pull you through the corner. Our MDX does it phenomenally.
But, as others pointed out, you do have to cut the speed before the corner, and you can get back on the power mid-curve. AWD is still the fastest safest way to drive in snow.
I was going to suggest to the OP an MDX or RDX. If these are too tall to fit beneath the lift in the garage, try a TL or RL sedan with the system.
And, there is real truth to the concept of an AWD being able to pull you through the corner. Our MDX does it phenomenally.
But, as others pointed out, you do have to cut the speed before the corner, and you can get back on the power mid-curve. AWD is still the fastest safest way to drive in snow.
I was going to suggest to the OP an MDX or RDX. If these are too tall to fit beneath the lift in the garage, try a TL or RL sedan with the system.
04-05-2014, 12:00 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
04-05-2014, 12:15 AM
#60