dhc905

I was looking at buying a 964, but recently came upon a 2002 4S, which is kind of my grail porsche so to speak.

It has 142K miles; but everyone on the 964 forum said that if you are looking for a a used porsche, you could do a lot worse than a really well maintained high mileage one.

I asked the basic questions and his responses are below:

#1 IMS and RMS has been done. Receipts are available. Car comes with complete maintenance records.

#2 Back tires are brand new, front are in good condition.

Seems like it might be a well maintained car - I haven't run a carfax or anything, but assuming it comes back with a clean PPI, what would you pay for it?

KBB says 15K trade-in and high 17K for private party. Seller is asking significantly above both.

Thanks!

Kalashnikov

$17-$22k depending on options, Carfax, and PPI.

Dennis C

That's a tough one. I've actually been thinking about this very question in the event that I decide to sell my 2002 C4S with ~132K on the odometer.

A water-cooled Porsche 911 with high mileage is difficult to value. I wouldn't trust KBB. A car like that with higher mileage takes a very specific type of buyer, so their estimate may not reflect reality.

I wouldn't expect a car like that to sell for more than $20K, and it could go for quite a bit less. It's really hard to say.

dhc905

Yeah that's what I was thinking. He's been quite firm at 22.6 with a new front and rear brake replacement that he says will cost about $2,300. The problem is there's a couple 4S's out there with half the mileage selling for 26-29K. I don't think 70K should only contribute $4K of depreciation, even in a 12 year old car...

onewhippedpuppy

What is he doing with the brakes that costs $2300?!

Personally I wouldn't give over $20k, and that's if the car is mechanically and physically top notch. I've seen a few C4S with under 100k listed for $25k or less. They sell quickly, but the deals are out there if you look and are willing to travel. From a value standpoint, with that many miles many people won't even consider the car. After you put more miles on it, even less will consider it. Combine that with a car that is still depreciating, and you may take a bath if you decide to sell it.

DaveCarrera4

From another thread (C4S Values Tank)
So, I'm back. Did some statistics on C4S pricing (not sales but asking price) from several sites on the web, like cars dot com, autotrader, etc. I did not use any ebay data. I do not have any data about what this model actually sold for, but one could assume a certain percentage under the asking price. I collected 61 samples between MY 2002 and 2005. Some interesting info came out of this very limited data set. For all cars, average list price is as follows (MY / asking $ / % diff per yr):

MY 2002 $31,367
MY 2003 $33,043 5.3%
MY 2004 $34,134 3.3%
MY 2005 $37,616 10.2%

this part was very interesting, here is the average odo reading per model year:
Year / Avg. Miles
MY 2002 66,672
MY 2003 66,171
MY 2004 63,240
MY 2005 57,266
(not a big difference)

From odometer info, the following data falls out (odo reading / avg. ask price / % diff.):
ODO <40K $38,775
ODO <50K $35,911 -7.4%
ODO <60K $34,336 -4.4%
ODO <70K $33,395 -2.7%
ODO <80K $33,290 -0.3%
ODO <90K $30,505 -8.4%

Seems a manual transmission is slightly more desirable at 1% higher asking price.

The following graphs show the trend in asking price based on model year and by odo mileage (if you are a buyer, try to stay at or below the line!):

2003 Carrera 4S Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 Rust Red

dhc905

That's awesome. I don't see the graph, but get the message. 140K on any car is probably too high. I originally told him I was in the 16-17K range and he told me that if I could produce a 4S for less than 20K, he'd buy another one.

Guess he's just in the clouds...

Kalashnikov

What is TOO HIGH mileage? Do you know that there is no difference between 80k and 140k miles on the maintained car?

Low mileage C4S with 60k miles is a lot riskier than normally used C4S. Low mileage car is either never driven or driven short distances, neither is good for the car. If the guy was commuting on his C4S, and you have maintenance records then you have a great deal. 140K is a normal mileage for 12 year old car.

There are cars here with 150k miles plus doing just fine. If you can get the guy to 18-19k take the car.

pfbz

140K is definitely higher miles, but overall condition is so much more than miles.

I'm not saying they are not occasionally out there, but decent sub $20K 996's are much harder to find than you might gather from reading forums... Virtually every 996 I've ever looked at that was less than $25K, - even regular C2's -, were beat hard and put away wet. Some cosmetically challenged with really torn up interiors or abused exteriors, some with significant accident history, most with at least half-a-dozen owners and through at least a couple of auto auctions, almost never with decent service records... Many are likely going to be a money pits, especially if you don't do your own work. Not to mention if they aren't local, you have to add travel or transport cost, not to mention a much higher risk that the car isn't as represented in the ad.

If somebody local is offering a MkII 996, especially a C4S, that has three or less owners, is fully documented, lovingly maintained, and cosmetically excellent for $22.6K, even with high miles, I'd definitely favor it over a $3-5K less expensive car that fits the category I described above. Better yet, tell him to skip the $2,300 brake job and settle on $19-20K. DIY rotor/pad/flush is super easy, and with new pads and rotors should still be less than 1/4 of that price.

jyoteen

value: priceless

price: a meeeeeelion dollars :reckon:

140k on a beyond a well maintained car is IMHO more desirable than a lower mileage car without rigorous maintenance.

Why would anyone sell a sub 20k 996 anyway? Just drive it until it dies.

pfbz

Dennis, I don't think I've ever seen your C4S, but based on your forum posts I'm guessing that despite the high miles it is almost all the things Porsche buyers want their cars to be... I think your voice mailbox would be full and it would sell instantly in the Denver market priced at under $20K.

5CHN3LL

I usually agree with most of what you say, but this just isn't accurate. An engine with 140K miles is more worn than an engine with 80K. Every engine will fail when you run it long enough...they just don't last forever.

An 80K mile unmaintained or ragged out car may be in worse shape than a meticulously maintained 140K mile car, but all things being equal, you'd be insane to take a 140K mile car over an 80K mile car. Doing so is just blatantly ignoring the fact that machines wear out.

Kalashnikov

I should have worded it more precisely, the wear difference between equally maintained 80k mile engine and 140k mile engine will be insignificant. Assuming timely oil changes and no detrimental events such as overheating or lack of lubrication, you would not see any significant difference inside those two engines should you pull them apart and inspect the clearances.

With any 996 documented maintenance becomes a lot more important than miles at this point. If OP has fully documented car with 140k miles with every oil change and every major service done on the point, then it is a great deal for $20k or so. IMS and RMS are done, assuming that PPI comes through the car is GTG. Even if he drives the car the average of 12k miles per year, it will still last him for five solid years.

I agree with you 100% that ragged 80k mile car will be inferior to the well maintained 140k mile car. And yes, if two cars were equally well maintained and priced at the same level, then lower mileage car takes the bid.

onewhippedpuppy

I agree with the point you are trying to make. I had a 1991 Land Cruiser with 200k when I sold it, I'm pretty convinced it had another 200k in it. I had a 1993 Saab 9000 Aero with 235k, original turbo, transmission, no engine work, and still going strong. Maintenance is more important than age and mileage as cars get older.

The one issue is the perception. My father in law thinks cars fall apart when they reach 100k, and there's a lot of people just like him. You have to be realistic about a more limited market come sale time, and purchase the car accordingly.

JohnCK2014

A engine rebuild is what? Around 15K? Suppose this car had a brand new rebuilt engine, what would it be worth then? I would say at least 30K. So, it is at least worth 15K . But the engine isn't shot. Lets say you put 8K a year on it. How long do you think that engine goes? If it goes say four years and 32K before you need a rebuild, then add four years of driving and fun to the 15K base cost. Seems to me this ought to be worth at least 20 or maybe 22 thousand.

I am really curious to see how long these engines go. You always hear the stories about the air cooled and the 996 Turbo engines going 200,0000 plus and still not needing a rebuild. Can the maligned N/A 996 engine do the same? This one seems to have survived 142,000 pretty well.