Best ways to burn your clutch (don't forget your flywheel in the process)
01-24-2014, 09:09 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Best ways to burn your clutch (don't forget your flywheel in the process)
Looking at the rarity of tip 996 C4s on my market, I'm starting to be really tempted to get a proper one with a manual transmission. There's a bit of an issue though. The last manual car I ever owned and driven regularely was a Dacia 1310 (a Renault 12 in Romanian version) back in my old country, 20 years ago. Meanwhile all the 4 wheeled stuff that was owned in my family had an automatic. I've driven on occasion on our trips to Europe here and there a small manual car and I can still remember the mechanics of these motions even though, also on occasion I've been known to stall a car in the busiest places in the most embarrassing way...
Anyway, a 996 C4s is a different animal, and if I get one I'd hate to burn the clutch in the first 1000 km or less, so my question is: how hard/annoying is driving one in stop and go traffic? I'll have one or two spots like this in my daily commute, one is actually going slightly uphill, along a few good spots where the car could stretch her legs...
So what would the do's and don't s of this transmission?
Any advice, no matter how silly sounding would be appreciated...
Anyway, a 996 C4s is a different animal, and if I get one I'd hate to burn the clutch in the first 1000 km or less, so my question is: how hard/annoying is driving one in stop and go traffic? I'll have one or two spots like this in my daily commute, one is actually going slightly uphill, along a few good spots where the car could stretch her legs...
So what would the do's and don't s of this transmission?
Any advice, no matter how silly sounding would be appreciated...
Last edited by BogdanR; 01-25-2014 at 08:18 PM. Reason: Clarity
01-24-2014, 09:32 PM
#2
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Believe it or not the modern 911s (including the 996) have clutches that are comparable to those small European rental cars you mentioned. In the old days the air-cooled 911 clutch was a different animal. But now they are power assisted and pretty easy going.
I use mine daily in traffic. I don't even think about shifting. Yes in bad traffic it's a hassle but that's not because of the 996 itself but because shifting becomes more frequent.
I use mine daily in traffic. I don't even think about shifting. Yes in bad traffic it's a hassle but that's not because of the 996 itself but because shifting becomes more frequent.
01-24-2014, 11:30 PM
#3
If you only have one or two spots of stop and go traffic in the GTA your doing something right! Not a difficult manual to drive, if you smooth, from a stop you can get the clutch full engaged without any throttle.
For your first couple off outings if your a bit nervous turn the AC on, it will bum the idle up a few hundred RPM's.
For your first couple off outings if your a bit nervous turn the AC on, it will bum the idle up a few hundred RPM's.
01-25-2014, 01:42 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
My C4 is a tip, but I have a manual Cayman S with essentially the same engine as the Carrera. While the Cayman clutch is light enough I think it is more difficult to modulate compared to something like a Honda or Toyota. In comparison too, my old 944s were also much easier to drive.
Unless you are constantly in stop and go traffic, I think the manual is the way to go as the driver interface is more intimate.
Unless you are constantly in stop and go traffic, I think the manual is the way to go as the driver interface is more intimate.
Last edited by Spokayman; 01-25-2014 at 01:42 AM. Reason: spelling
01-25-2014, 10:37 AM
#5
Instructor
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I have a 2004 C4S that I drive in constant stop and go traffic since I live in NJ. Yes it's annoying, but it's not difficult. Once you get a feel for the engage point on the clutch, you really get used to it and stop paying attention to it.
01-25-2014, 11:35 AM
#6
Drifting
When I first got my 996, I found the clutch to require more effort as compared to my V6 Accord Coupe, not huge amount but definitely quite noticeable.
However it didn't take too long for me to get used to it, now I almost don't notice any difference.
As for clutch wear, just like any other manual transmission car, the 996 clutch will last just fine as long as you don't abuse the clutch and knows how to properly drive a standard transmission.
However it didn't take too long for me to get used to it, now I almost don't notice any difference.
As for clutch wear, just like any other manual transmission car, the 996 clutch will last just fine as long as you don't abuse the clutch and knows how to properly drive a standard transmission.
01-25-2014, 12:07 PM
#7
Race Director
Don't slip the clutch any more than you have to and it will last a long time. Change the transmission fluid at reasonable intervals and the transmission will last a long time. Be sure servicing includes a brake fluid and clutch fluid flush and bleed every 2 years.
Be as smooth as you can be when shifting up or down.
The engine has plenty of low end tractability and is easy to move from a stop. You can get a feel for how easy by on some empty parking lot just put your right foot flat on the floor and let the clutch out slowly with the engine at idle. You should be able to get the car moving with little slippage and without stalling the engine. The DME will attempt to keep the RPMs at the idle speed so it can adapt some to the load as long as you are smooth with the clutch.
In the real world not just playing around on a parking lot with my 02 Boxster -- which is also very tractable at low engine speeds -- I give the engine a bit of gas raising the RPMs to a bit over 1K and then let the clutch out smoothly and let the inertia of the flywheel help get the car moving with a minimum of clutch slippage.
How minimal? Well, the Boxster has over 275K miles on it and the clutch is original.
(The same technique works for my Turbo which has over 117K miles. I had the RMS done a while back and the clutch disc was measured -- by the tech and myself -- and there was no measurable wear of the disc friction material from the new thickness dimension.)
OTOH, I spotted a 996 in the shop the other day and found out it was in for a new clutch. I forget the miles but they were not high. Seems the driver got caught in some horrific traffic back up and ended up overheating the clutch and ruined it. The disc material delaminated from the heat.
Probably riding the clutch to keep the car moving ahead at a crawl instead of sitting with the car in neutral and the clutch out and letting some distance develop between his car and the vehicle in front before pulling the car forward and then shifting back into neutral and letting the clutch out again. This keeps the heat build up down in both the disc and flywheel and release bearing. Heat is the killer of these.
Buy the C4 and spend your first few minutes in the car getting a feel for how easy it is to get the car moving from a stop with very little clutch slippage -- see my opening comments -- and then enjoy the car and a long clutch service life.
Be as smooth as you can be when shifting up or down.
The engine has plenty of low end tractability and is easy to move from a stop. You can get a feel for how easy by on some empty parking lot just put your right foot flat on the floor and let the clutch out slowly with the engine at idle. You should be able to get the car moving with little slippage and without stalling the engine. The DME will attempt to keep the RPMs at the idle speed so it can adapt some to the load as long as you are smooth with the clutch.
In the real world not just playing around on a parking lot with my 02 Boxster -- which is also very tractable at low engine speeds -- I give the engine a bit of gas raising the RPMs to a bit over 1K and then let the clutch out smoothly and let the inertia of the flywheel help get the car moving with a minimum of clutch slippage.
How minimal? Well, the Boxster has over 275K miles on it and the clutch is original.
(The same technique works for my Turbo which has over 117K miles. I had the RMS done a while back and the clutch disc was measured -- by the tech and myself -- and there was no measurable wear of the disc friction material from the new thickness dimension.)
OTOH, I spotted a 996 in the shop the other day and found out it was in for a new clutch. I forget the miles but they were not high. Seems the driver got caught in some horrific traffic back up and ended up overheating the clutch and ruined it. The disc material delaminated from the heat.
Probably riding the clutch to keep the car moving ahead at a crawl instead of sitting with the car in neutral and the clutch out and letting some distance develop between his car and the vehicle in front before pulling the car forward and then shifting back into neutral and letting the clutch out again. This keeps the heat build up down in both the disc and flywheel and release bearing. Heat is the killer of these.
Buy the C4 and spend your first few minutes in the car getting a feel for how easy it is to get the car moving from a stop with very little clutch slippage -- see my opening comments -- and then enjoy the car and a long clutch service life.
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01-25-2014, 12:18 PM
#8
Former Vendor
Don't slip the clutch any more than you have to and it will last a long time. Change the transmission fluid at reasonable intervals and the transmission will last a long time. Be sure servicing includes a brake fluid and clutch fluid flush and bleed every 2 years.
Be as smooth as you can be when shifting up or down.
The engine has plenty of low end tractability and is easy to move from a stop. You can get a feel for how easy by on some empty parking lot just put your right foot flat on the floor and let the clutch out slowly with the engine at idle. You should be able to get the car moving with little slippage and without stalling the engine. The DME will attempt to keep the RPMs at the idle speed so it can adapt some to the load as long as you are smooth with the clutch.
In the real world not just playing around on a parking lot with my 02 Boxster -- which is also very tractable at low engine speeds -- I give the engine a bit of gas raising the RPMs to a bit over 1K and then let the clutch out smoothly and let the inertia of the flywheel help get the car moving with a minimum of clutch slippage.
How minimal? Well, the Boxster has over 275K miles on it and the clutch is original.
(The same technique works for my Turbo which has over 117K miles. I had the RMS done a while back and the clutch disc was measured -- by the tech and myself -- and there was no measurable wear of the disc friction material from the new thickness dimension.)
OTOH, I spotted a 996 in the shop the other day and found out it was in for a new clutch. I forget the miles but they were not high. Seems the driver got caught in some horrific traffic back up and ended up overheating the clutch and ruined it. The disc material delaminated from the heat.
Probably riding the clutch to keep the car moving ahead at a crawl instead of sitting with the car in neutral and the clutch out and letting some distance develop between his car and the vehicle in front before pulling the car forward and then shifting back into neutral and letting the clutch out again. This keeps the heat build up down in both the disc and flywheel and release bearing. Heat is the killer of these.
Buy the C4 and spend your first few minutes in the car getting a feel for how easy it is to get the car moving from a stop with very little clutch slippage -- see my opening comments -- and then enjoy the car and a long clutch service life.
Be as smooth as you can be when shifting up or down.
The engine has plenty of low end tractability and is easy to move from a stop. You can get a feel for how easy by on some empty parking lot just put your right foot flat on the floor and let the clutch out slowly with the engine at idle. You should be able to get the car moving with little slippage and without stalling the engine. The DME will attempt to keep the RPMs at the idle speed so it can adapt some to the load as long as you are smooth with the clutch.
In the real world not just playing around on a parking lot with my 02 Boxster -- which is also very tractable at low engine speeds -- I give the engine a bit of gas raising the RPMs to a bit over 1K and then let the clutch out smoothly and let the inertia of the flywheel help get the car moving with a minimum of clutch slippage.
How minimal? Well, the Boxster has over 275K miles on it and the clutch is original.
(The same technique works for my Turbo which has over 117K miles. I had the RMS done a while back and the clutch disc was measured -- by the tech and myself -- and there was no measurable wear of the disc friction material from the new thickness dimension.)
OTOH, I spotted a 996 in the shop the other day and found out it was in for a new clutch. I forget the miles but they were not high. Seems the driver got caught in some horrific traffic back up and ended up overheating the clutch and ruined it. The disc material delaminated from the heat.
Probably riding the clutch to keep the car moving ahead at a crawl instead of sitting with the car in neutral and the clutch out and letting some distance develop between his car and the vehicle in front before pulling the car forward and then shifting back into neutral and letting the clutch out again. This keeps the heat build up down in both the disc and flywheel and release bearing. Heat is the killer of these.
Buy the C4 and spend your first few minutes in the car getting a feel for how easy it is to get the car moving from a stop with very little clutch slippage -- see my opening comments -- and then enjoy the car and a long clutch service life.
01-25-2014, 07:15 PM
#9
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks guys. Excellent advice so far, I'm starting feeling better, keep it coming... :-)
How short is the first really on this car? Would one be able to start smoothly in second for instance? (Say from waiting to make a left turn...) My apologies if this is heresy ...
How short is the first really on this car? Would one be able to start smoothly in second for instance? (Say from waiting to make a left turn...) My apologies if this is heresy ...
01-25-2014, 07:34 PM
#10
Instructor
Thread Starter
9964runner, my commute is kind of short around 20km one way and involves some side roads :-). Now with all the new housing developments in the King City/ Oak ridges area those side-roads unfortunately are becoming more and more crowded but if one gets out of bed early enough the traffic is not all that bad... Jane St. however, from Major Mac to Langstaff is rife with little korean/japanese cars driven VERY carefully, well under the limit with no room allowed to pass around by people seemingly in absolutely no hurry to get where they're supposed to be going... Most of these people will allow at least 45 car lengths in front of them before daring to move on a green signal so sometimes one could spend a good few minutes idling and inching forward at some of those intersections...
I should not complain though... It does not take me more than 30-35 minutes every day...
I should not complain though... It does not take me more than 30-35 minutes every day...
01-25-2014, 07:43 PM
#11
dude do not take this wrong but i do not think you should drive a manual. get an automatic. fyi DO NOT START OUT IN 2ND GEAR.........IN ANY CAR:nono
01-25-2014, 07:48 PM
#12
Race Director
Use 1st to get the car moving then upshift and downshift as necessary to match RPMs with road speed and torque needs.
01-25-2014, 08:32 PM
#13
Instructor
Thread Starter
Ok guys, I'm just asking OK?... I've been driving trucks and artillery tractors (bigger trucks) back in my military service, things with gobs of torque. Heavy duty transmissions as well that would take and see a lot of abuse ...
I'm merely trying to determine what the 996 C4s can and can't do, and especially the no-nos... without burning out the clutch in what will be my first Porsche ever.
So, again, please excuse the heresies. I know I'm an inquisitive idiot, please humour me :-)
I'm merely trying to determine what the 996 C4s can and can't do, and especially the no-nos... without burning out the clutch in what will be my first Porsche ever.
So, again, please excuse the heresies. I know I'm an inquisitive idiot, please humour me :-)
01-25-2014, 08:59 PM
#14
Race Director
I have done several hours of traffic in the 996 C4 - it's not like driving a big v8 with a race clutch. The stock clutch isn't bad at all.
I can't tell you whether the C4S clutch is appreciably heavier, but it doesn't seem reasonable that it would be...
I can't tell you whether the C4S clutch is appreciably heavier, but it doesn't seem reasonable that it would be...
01-25-2014, 10:31 PM
#15
Race Director
Well, the basic no no is don't treat it like it is a military vehicle. The engine and transmission, all the running gear the whole car in fact, is quite well built and designed to give a long and trouble free service life given reasonable servicing and treatment but it will not take abuse or misuse without suffering for it.
It may just be me but I've never been one to see what I could get away with regarding treatment of my cars. I have driven them hard, but still with reasonable care and concern for the hardware. They are expensive to put right should something go wrong and no one wants to live with a sick Porsche -- at least I don't -- to avoid paying big money to put something right something one did by doing something wrong.
It may just be me but I've never been one to see what I could get away with regarding treatment of my cars. I have driven them hard, but still with reasonable care and concern for the hardware. They are expensive to put right should something go wrong and no one wants to live with a sick Porsche -- at least I don't -- to avoid paying big money to put something right something one did by doing something wrong.