Thanks again to those who gave me advice on my audio system last week. Over the weekend, I went back to Paris Audio and they (Jamey) spent some time tuning the system. I was lucky as the shop was quiet and we were able to take an hour or so to play with different crossover adjustments. Bottom line, it now sounds fantastic. Like a completely different system! I know that tuning and eq makes a big difference, but it was amazing to see how someone who really knows what they are doing can get the max out of a system. (In Jamey's words, "that's the difference between [Jamey's] installer with 7 years of experience and [Jamey] who has 20." I think it shoudl have been set right from the beginning, but luckily I'm local and didn't mind spending the time to go back and get it right. Although Paris is expensive, there was no questions asked about opening it up and figuring out how to make it better (obviously, no charge).

Although the stereo sounds enormously better, it still needs a sub (as I think all but one of you agreed). I'm going to upgrade the amp - maybe to the Diamond Audio D7 (5 channel with much more power) - and do either a 10" or pair of 5" in the passenger footwell. Anyone have a suggestion as to whether the single larger sub versus the pair of smaller ones will be better?

 

Glad to hear they got your crossover settings right for you. I could not think of any reason other than that as to why the system would not have sounded good to begin with.

If it were my choice... I would go for a single large sub as opposed to several small subs. Try to listen to both and go from there.

 

Two "fives" with deeper voice coil throw and higher efficiency voice coil magnets and a good tuned enclosure will always yeild better performance than your "average" 10".

Don't buy the 10 inch just because it's bigger (is better) and more expensive(??), higher margins to the seller.

 

"set right from the beginning"....

Why?

Remember that 9 out of ten folks will never notice the difference, why should the installer/shop put the extra (SKILLED, highly paid) labor, and forego the extra profit margins, unless the buyer comes back and complains.

"7 years experience"....

Over-qualified technician (demand more pay) for the average upscale automotive audio shop, maybe your experienced guy was part owner.

 

ER: I went with the 5's in the footwell, as I was told that they'd hit harder and blend better into the music. I didn't really need them to sound 'sub-like' - I just wanted musicality. That said, I still get a pretty whomping amount of bass, and Paris installs a sub-level control in the dash so you can constantly add as much as you want.

A 10" driver will drive lower frequencies, but will also have a much slower response so you run the risk of muddying up the low end a bit (and it will need a bigger amp to run as cleanly). But ask Jamey to demo the different systems - he did for me & I've been really happy with the 5's...

 

I've read that bass response is based on surface area of the subs, so a single 10" (pi*rad*rad = 25pi) would likely be better than two 5" (6.25pi*2 = 12.5pi), although as wwest says the quality of the speakers could make all the difference. I have two 8" subs, like many folks here, and I love it. I probably have "average" speakers, though (MTX Thunder 4500 @ ~$90 each). I went with the recommendations of my installer, which served me well. I'd listen to what the folks at Paris are suggesting, after they understand what type of music you listen to and what type of experience you want.

 

Thats fantastic ER996!
now thats its correctly tweeked, you can safely go on upgrading from there until its sounds just as you want it to.

About the pair of 5" vs single 10", it depends on your personal "taste" and the type of music you normally listen to.

With the pair of 5"'s you are going to get more of whats known as "TIGHTER" bass, with more kick. But on the other hand with the 10" you are going to get more filling or fullness bass response, and since its going to be in a sealed type enclosure its not going to be "booming" base such as vertex or especially bandpass enclosures (the ones you hear from blocks away), so its still going to be on the tighter side (which is the bass I personally like). And you still get "some" of the similar to the two 5" bass and quick response from the 6" woofers in the doors already.

Thats why I would personnally preffer the 10" because its a better compromise more versatile, more complete. 5" speakers are not really subwoofers, and are used as alternate solution for small places where you can't fit the larger subs. The 10" for example, due to the larger cone surface area and greater excursion, is going to maintain bass
better than the pair of 5"'s at higher volumes with the high ambient noise associated with driving, thats also important, since one thing is in the shop and another while driving.

But bottom line is, both are good solutions but depends of personal preference and since its hard to describe with words, if you have the oportunity to compare, I highly recommend it, though you will notice a great improvement with both.

BTW why not behind the seats and not occupy part of the the footwell? It shouldn't be anymore expensive? You have more room there to fit wahtever you like, maybe two 8" subs which would be even better.

Let us know how it turns out...

 

10" vs....

Speakers are nothing more than AIR PUMPS.

Or: A 4 cyclinder 3.0 liter engine can deliver just a much Hp/Torque as a 3.0 liter V6.

But if the 3 liter 4 cyl has a short stroke in comparison to the V6's long stroke the HP/torque ratios between the two might vary widely.

I would think that the task of designing a confined space tuned enclosure for two smaller "air pumps" might very well be a much easier task than of one designed with just one large equal capacity "air pump".

Have a look at how most, even upscale, home theatre systems attack this problem.

 

Good idea... goto a place like Circuit City and compare the sound and output a Bose subwoofer (small speaker and enclosure)to the sound and output of something like a Velodyne or Paradigm subwoofer (larger speaker and enclosure). They both do the job, but turn up the volume and you can see which design falls short. The reason being is that one is more of a compromise approach... you can figure out which one on your own.

Talk to the boys at Paris, tell them what you want, the type of music you listen to, and listen to their suggestions. They should have a way for you to compare both types of sub systems. Go with the one setup that pleases your tastes the most... and let us know what you do. In the end, you will be the one listening to it... not wwest, Carlos, or myself .



Two eights...

 

Wwest, do you even know how a CAR stereo sealed enclosure of a 10" sub or two 5" speakers is built? and what the difference is in performance and in sound?

Lets try to give ER996 some positive constructive feedback, please.

 

Carlos,

Your really should have figured out by now that yes, I do know what I'm talking about in the audio world, probably moreso in the home or studio environment than in the automotive environment.

You just simply cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear so I haven't wasted much time trying to reach the ultimate in automotive audio performance.

Circuit City....

Well, the equipment you want to hear is likely to be there, that's certain.

But I'd be willing to bet that if you follow that young inexperienced lowly paid salesman out to his car (the other gender doesn't go "here') he'll be glad to show you his idea of good bass reproduction. But cover your ears first.

If you were in the Seattle eastside area I would send you to Definitive Audio or Magnolia HiFi. The prices are steep but you get to work with an well paid and experienced salesperson (the other gender does go "here") .

Not too many years ago throughout my home I had a collection of fairly large (heavy, solid, etc.) speaker enclosures, typically with sub-woofer speakers of at least 10 inches. I gave them all away.

Now, I admit, I'm quite puzzled. This crowd, Porsche owners, IMMHO, isn't likely to want to bias the reproduction of audio content so radically toward "thumping" bass like those salemen you encounter at Circuit City and such.

So just what is going on here?

Are we being elitist? Bigger is better? More expensive is better?

Now all of those I could readily believe to be sprinkled amongst "our" crowd.

But going out and listening for yourself really is a good idea.

Now I really don't know how large, or small, the speakers actually are in a compact upscale sub-woofer enclosure. But I do know that if you take a sub-woofer enclosure with a large speaker, deep voice coil throw/travel and high efficiency voice coil magnets and compare it to an upscale sub-woofer system of relative compact size, your ear, or any electronic instrumentation available, spectrum analyzer and/or DB measurements, will not be able to discern the difference.

So, now, forget all of this, take your own CD in, listen, really listen, and make your choice, based on what you actually hear, absent any constraining monetary or other "concrete" limitations.

Another thought. In general it will be cheaper, overall, to market a sub-woofer with a single large speaker compared to a smaller one one that definitely needs or requires a tuned enclosure.

At the very core is that what is in operation here?

The smaller sub-woofer with a tuned enclosure clearly would set the standard for more expensive pricing. A sub-woofer with a larger speaker would clearly need less design work and a much simpler enclosure to produce equivalent output.

So.

Any audio place more interested, or even only slightly biased toward, the bottom line, (who, Me??), would certainly push a 10" sub-woofer for $200, rather than an equal or even better performing compact sub-woofer for that same $200.

 

What I have figured out is that, not in the car audio, i.e:

Diamond and Focal especially are top notch brands in car audio...



As it was explained already, its the subwoofers that allow a more faithful reproduction of the original source because they can maintian the lower frequencies that you loose when car is moving do to the ambient noise and higher volume of the stereo.

No, in car audio subwoofers systems, a 10" subwoofer enclosure yields better performace in general from than two 5" subwoofer enclosure.

No, we are talkning about a sealed enclosure, both are extremly easy to build. The speaker size has nothing to do with it. The shape of the box so it fits in the place of the car you want is more important in designing it. But what matters most is the type of enclosure, in a vented or reflex enclosure you have to calculate the volume of the box needed for the drivers much more precisely and also design the appropriate reflex resonance tubes which requires some calculatios, a bandpass for example is even more complicated because in essence you are designing a vented and a sealed box joined togetehr separated by the drivers membrane, etc.

Quote:

You just simply cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear so I haven't wasted much time trying to reach the ultimate in automotive audio performance.

Wwest, I'm trying to understand your posts and I think the problem is that you are trying to apply your home/studio hi-fi knowledge (which I think you do know about) to car audio hi-fi (which I gather from your haven't bothered with), and that is not possible. They are two different worlds, you can take a car audio an put it in your livingroom and will sound miserable and viceversa. As you can see from all the other posters are in agreement with each other except you. I have read posts from you in other subjects and you have been very helpful and made good contributions but not it comes to car audio you should admit it, its not your cup of tea...

 

Thanks again for those who've responded. My questions seem to generate some friction between Carlos and Wwest on this topic! I'm not chosing sides here, but thanks Carlos for giving the constructive advice. I will let Paris make their (more experienced) suggestions. Because they are so damn expensive, the cost of doing twin 8"s in the rear is too high (almost $2k for the speakers and box/wiring alone). I know I could get this done cheaper elsewhere, but the quality of the work at Paris is so good, and they've done the rest of the system, it's not worth it. I think I'll do the passenger footwell. It'll be twin 5"s, single 8" or single 10". I'll get their opinion and it'll also depend on space and the quality of the speakers of course. Since I have 6" woofers in the doors, I might not go with the twin 5"s. I do like the bass tight, however, not particularly boomy.

 

Nah, no friction just a little different opinions but Wwest is a nice guy who you can argue with in a maturely and civilized manner as you can see from his responses

2k? Wow, that is really expensive! I think they need a little competition in the area to lower their prices, thats is severily overpriced! but since they did the rest of the system and you know how they work and their great quality, I think you are making the right choice. I would like to know what you liked best, the single 8"-10" or the two 5" box. Hope everything works out well.

 

$2000 for a sub box with two 8" subs... that is obscene. eek: There is good quality work available out there other than Paris, just check around. Car Audio Innovations can make you a box very similar to mine with two 8" ID subs for $700. Let us know what you think and what you end up with.