Is a 996 the right car for me?
07-29-2013, 08:30 PM
#1
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Is a 996 the right car for me?
First post here, hopefully there aren't too many threads like this. I have read the 996 buyer's guide and it surely is helpful, but I figure the more opinions I get the better. Long time Porsche fan here who's considering a 996 as a daily driver, stepping up from a modded E36 M3. Specifically, I have my heart set on a C4S---Colorado winters are mild, but AWD would be nice for when I want to go skiing, and IMO the look of the wide body is worth the extra dough. I'm also considering other cars, though. Specifically offerings from Audi (B7 S4 or S5) and BMW (335xi), and I've even thought about an Evo X. So I guess keep that in mind. Anyway, I have a few questions that will hopefully help me determine whether or not a 996 is right for me.
What's the real cost of owning a 996 like? For example, how expensive are parts compared to something like a 944 or an E36 M3? Keep in mind I'd be doing all my own maintenance. I'm not poor, I have reserve funds for when things break, but I'm no millionaire. I'd be driving a 991 if that were the case
But if something goes severely wrong (blown engine), I'd be pretty much SOL for a while.
Next, what's it like to work on a 996? I've read conflicting opinions. Some say it's the easiest Porsche ever to work on, others say it's a nightmare if you've never worked on a rear-engine vehicle before (I haven't). I have, however, owned and raced a 944, and did all my own work on it. It wasn't too terrible.
Is it a bad idea to go for a high mileage 996 (over 75K)? Whatever car I get would be my daily driver, one that I'll likely own for the next few years and be putting 40-50K miles on. I'm wondering what maintenance cost will be like (most cars need some pricey maintenance in the 90K to 130K intervals). But I'm also thinking about resale value. I have to wonder how much more 996s will go down in value...they're already stupid low...
What about power adders? How much extra power can be reliably squeezed out of the 3.6L without forced induction? My M3 makes around 230 to the wheels (corrected for altitude), and I figure a 996 C4S will be about the same. Of course it will probably feel faster with AWD, but something like a B7 S4 would likely be even faster. Thing is, it's not a 911
I think that's it for now. Thanks in advance!
What's the real cost of owning a 996 like? For example, how expensive are parts compared to something like a 944 or an E36 M3? Keep in mind I'd be doing all my own maintenance. I'm not poor, I have reserve funds for when things break, but I'm no millionaire. I'd be driving a 991 if that were the case
But if something goes severely wrong (blown engine), I'd be pretty much SOL for a while.Next, what's it like to work on a 996? I've read conflicting opinions. Some say it's the easiest Porsche ever to work on, others say it's a nightmare if you've never worked on a rear-engine vehicle before (I haven't). I have, however, owned and raced a 944, and did all my own work on it. It wasn't too terrible.
Is it a bad idea to go for a high mileage 996 (over 75K)? Whatever car I get would be my daily driver, one that I'll likely own for the next few years and be putting 40-50K miles on. I'm wondering what maintenance cost will be like (most cars need some pricey maintenance in the 90K to 130K intervals). But I'm also thinking about resale value. I have to wonder how much more 996s will go down in value...they're already stupid low...
What about power adders? How much extra power can be reliably squeezed out of the 3.6L without forced induction? My M3 makes around 230 to the wheels (corrected for altitude), and I figure a 996 C4S will be about the same. Of course it will probably feel faster with AWD, but something like a B7 S4 would likely be even faster. Thing is, it's not a 911
I think that's it for now. Thanks in advance!
07-29-2013, 11:27 PM
#3
you have lots of questions so I'll try to reply a few. I think you need to do a bit more research though (and maybe that's what zanzibar is hinting too)
a) a C4S is more powerful than your M3. Even if you want to take a conservative loss of 20% for the AWD, a C4S would still make 260hp at the wheels. C4S should be faster on the road
b) a C4S will absolutely annihilate a B7 S4. B7 S4 are great cars but they are super-tankers, prob something like 400lbs heavier than a C4S
c) even if you are a DIYer, parts on the 996s are generally expensive, and especially performance parts command a stupid high Porsche tax.
d) some of the work is a lot more complex than it would be on a FR car. Access to stuff is pretty hard. But other than that, it's still doable with patience
e) you won't be able to gain much of anything power-wise on the 3.6. A few bolt ons with tiny gains and huge price tags. Only thing I got and I'm happy with is the under-drive pulley. Was cheap enough and with some real gains and no over-heating issue even in 100+F Texas weather
a) a C4S is more powerful than your M3. Even if you want to take a conservative loss of 20% for the AWD, a C4S would still make 260hp at the wheels. C4S should be faster on the road
b) a C4S will absolutely annihilate a B7 S4. B7 S4 are great cars but they are super-tankers, prob something like 400lbs heavier than a C4S
c) even if you are a DIYer, parts on the 996s are generally expensive, and especially performance parts command a stupid high Porsche tax.
d) some of the work is a lot more complex than it would be on a FR car. Access to stuff is pretty hard. But other than that, it's still doable with patience
e) you won't be able to gain much of anything power-wise on the 3.6. A few bolt ons with tiny gains and huge price tags. Only thing I got and I'm happy with is the under-drive pulley. Was cheap enough and with some real gains and no over-heating issue even in 100+F Texas weather
07-29-2013, 11:42 PM
#4
Rocky Mountain High
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I live in CO also and my daily driver is a C4S. I put dedicated winter wheels on it between October and May, and it does reasonably well. Here are a few things you should keep in mind:
- Snow deeper than 4" can be problematic due to ground clearance.
- Steep driveways and roads can also cause problems for this reason.
- Taking the C4S skiing isn't as easy as it sounds. I could never make it in or out of the A-Basin parking lot in the winter. It has too many ruts and deep potholes. It would be a disaster.
- The AWD system in the 996 uses a viscous coupling and doesn't really compare to a "proper" AWD system like Audi Quattro. It's nice to have in slippery conditions, but it's not great.
- Annual maintenance on a 996 can vary considerably. I've had my brakes done this year, a suspension repair and a new clutch and IMSB. I've spent over $7,000 so far in 2013. I need new winter tires this fall, so the fun isn't over yet.
I find my C4S very rewarding as a daily driver in Colorado, but it has some limitations. I still think an Audi Allroad is the ultimate Colorado car for a daily driver and it's the only car you can access. A Cayenne would be a great choice too.
I'm not trying to discourage you, I just think you should make a decision based on facts.
- Snow deeper than 4" can be problematic due to ground clearance.
- Steep driveways and roads can also cause problems for this reason.
- Taking the C4S skiing isn't as easy as it sounds. I could never make it in or out of the A-Basin parking lot in the winter. It has too many ruts and deep potholes. It would be a disaster.
- The AWD system in the 996 uses a viscous coupling and doesn't really compare to a "proper" AWD system like Audi Quattro. It's nice to have in slippery conditions, but it's not great.
- Annual maintenance on a 996 can vary considerably. I've had my brakes done this year, a suspension repair and a new clutch and IMSB. I've spent over $7,000 so far in 2013. I need new winter tires this fall, so the fun isn't over yet.
I find my C4S very rewarding as a daily driver in Colorado, but it has some limitations. I still think an Audi Allroad is the ultimate Colorado car for a daily driver and it's the only car you can access. A Cayenne would be a great choice too.
I'm not trying to discourage you, I just think you should make a decision based on facts.
07-30-2013, 01:44 AM
#6
I also live in CO with a 2002 C2. I use it year round with Blizzak's during the messy months. While Dennis gets more snow where he is that I do where I am, I certainly drove it all over the place with snow on the ground. I was very surprised at how well it did last year and now see pretty much no reason to change to a C4 (although I was originally looking for one). As a point of comparison, my C2 with snows did better on snow and ice than our Touareg did with its all-seasons. While the tires obviously helped, the lighter weight probably helped as well as far as directional transitions were concerned. As Dennis alluded, when my street had 6" of snow on it on morning, I did not attempt to drive the Porsche as it would have high-centered and my neighbors might have pointed and laughed at me (can't have that)...
I've been under my car several times now and while I have not had to do anything major, the minor stuff was VERY simple and accessible and even the more major stuff looks like it is do-able for someone with your apparent experience and skills. I'd rather change something under the 996 than try to reach something in the engine bay of a V8 S4 for example.
There are plenty of parts sources, not all of which are pricy, many sell the same exact part in a non-Porsche box at a fraction of the cost. This site is fantastic for A) the degree of actual experience and helpfulness for any issue and B) the level of maturity of (most) of the commentariat as opposed to many other boards.
Good luck in your search, this car is the way to go.
I've been under my car several times now and while I have not had to do anything major, the minor stuff was VERY simple and accessible and even the more major stuff looks like it is do-able for someone with your apparent experience and skills. I'd rather change something under the 996 than try to reach something in the engine bay of a V8 S4 for example.
There are plenty of parts sources, not all of which are pricy, many sell the same exact part in a non-Porsche box at a fraction of the cost. This site is fantastic for A) the degree of actual experience and helpfulness for any issue and B) the level of maturity of (most) of the commentariat as opposed to many other boards.
Good luck in your search, this car is the way to go.
07-30-2013, 11:29 AM
#7
[QUOTE=DillonInCO;10645967]First post here, hopefully there aren't too many threads like this. I have read the 996 buyer's guide and it surely is helpful, but I figure the more opinions I get the better. Long time Porsche fan here who's considering a 996 as a daily driver, stepping up from a modded E36 M3. Specifically, I have my heart set on a C4S---Colorado winters are mild, but AWD would be nice for when I want to go skiing, and IMO the look of the wide body is worth the extra dough. I'm also considering other cars, though. Specifically offerings from Audi (B7 S4 or S5) and BMW (335xi), and I've even thought about an Evo X. So I guess keep that in mind. Anyway, I have a few questions that will hopefully help me determine whether or not a 996 is right for me.
Lots of wisdom and experience here with wide variances of wrenching expertise, so you'll have a range of opinions. As the 996 ages, things will break and need fixing, even on well maintained cars. If you are willing and able to fix some simple things, you may enjoy ownership. Otherwise paying for Porsche parts and a mechanic will kill the experience. Right now, the baseline cost is much lower than if you had paid the $$$ to buy it new or newish, so that may offset the costs of maintaining them. Since these are older cars now, I'd suggest finding a good mechanic in advance of finding a car.
Lots of wisdom and experience here with wide variances of wrenching expertise, so you'll have a range of opinions. As the 996 ages, things will break and need fixing, even on well maintained cars. If you are willing and able to fix some simple things, you may enjoy ownership. Otherwise paying for Porsche parts and a mechanic will kill the experience. Right now, the baseline cost is much lower than if you had paid the $$$ to buy it new or newish, so that may offset the costs of maintaining them. Since these are older cars now, I'd suggest finding a good mechanic in advance of finding a car.
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07-30-2013, 12:32 PM
#8
Daily driver?
Short of buying CPO, my advice: in after 25K miles, out by 60K miles. Let previous owner eat the massive depreciation then let the next owner foot the bill for major maintenance repairs. Labor is not really the issue, its the cost of parts. Also, the market is inundated, I mean up to its eyeballs in Carreras, Caymans/ Boxsters, Cayennes, Panameras with new 991/981's hitting the streets.
There's no need to settle for a car needing lots of work or with high mileage. On my last visit to Autotrader there were over 1,000 water-cooled Carreras listed, that's 100 cars per page, 10 pages deep....insane. There are not remotely enough second-hand Porsche buyers to absorb that kind of supply. Buyer's market: be choosy, negotiate hard if you're not getting everythign you want -- inventory is on your side not the seller's, and that's not getting anything but worse anytime soon. If you do find one that checks all the boxes, don't bust ***** too hard, Porsche owners can be a sensitive lot. Just make sure your PPI includes a leak down test.
Short of buying CPO, my advice: in after 25K miles, out by 60K miles. Let previous owner eat the massive depreciation then let the next owner foot the bill for major maintenance repairs. Labor is not really the issue, its the cost of parts. Also, the market is inundated, I mean up to its eyeballs in Carreras, Caymans/ Boxsters, Cayennes, Panameras with new 991/981's hitting the streets.
There's no need to settle for a car needing lots of work or with high mileage. On my last visit to Autotrader there were over 1,000 water-cooled Carreras listed, that's 100 cars per page, 10 pages deep....insane. There are not remotely enough second-hand Porsche buyers to absorb that kind of supply. Buyer's market: be choosy, negotiate hard if you're not getting everythign you want -- inventory is on your side not the seller's, and that's not getting anything but worse anytime soon. If you do find one that checks all the boxes, don't bust ***** too hard, Porsche owners can be a sensitive lot. Just make sure your PPI includes a leak down test.
07-30-2013, 12:41 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
You got lots of good replies. First though, can't be considering 911 in the same breath as Audis or BMW unless you are talking about the Audi super car or an M3 or M5 and even then, the comparison is not even.
So you really need to WANT a 911.
Snow: now this is a good topic. I drive mine year round. My only car. Here in NJ, roads are cleared fairly quickly so that's not a problem. People who don't live in the snow belt think that everyone goes out in heavy fresh snow, but here, only a very few brave souls venture out in heav snow. Most people tend 2 stay home then. The only real problem is really Black Ice: you don't see it and even with winter tires you can b caught unaware.
IMHO, if you really want a 911, you can go 4 it, knowing that proper maintenance is expensive but that P-cars are generally well built and that your major yearly expense is going to be tires as rears don't last much more than 12k miles if that. Competent winter tires are a must.
Unless you track you car, the loss of hp with a C4S is irrelevant as on public roads 0-60, 1/4 mile and top speed are not attainable. What you will enjoy is the total feel of the car, it's precise handling, the feel of quality and the made-to measure feeling you get. For myself, I am thrilled whenever I am behind the wheel, whether doing errands around town, going for a drive on country roads or tearing up or down a highway. It is a perfect daily driver.
So you really need to WANT a 911.
Snow: now this is a good topic. I drive mine year round. My only car. Here in NJ, roads are cleared fairly quickly so that's not a problem. People who don't live in the snow belt think that everyone goes out in heavy fresh snow, but here, only a very few brave souls venture out in heav snow. Most people tend 2 stay home then. The only real problem is really Black Ice: you don't see it and even with winter tires you can b caught unaware.
IMHO, if you really want a 911, you can go 4 it, knowing that proper maintenance is expensive but that P-cars are generally well built and that your major yearly expense is going to be tires as rears don't last much more than 12k miles if that. Competent winter tires are a must.
Unless you track you car, the loss of hp with a C4S is irrelevant as on public roads 0-60, 1/4 mile and top speed are not attainable. What you will enjoy is the total feel of the car, it's precise handling, the feel of quality and the made-to measure feeling you get. For myself, I am thrilled whenever I am behind the wheel, whether doing errands around town, going for a drive on country roads or tearing up or down a highway. It is a perfect daily driver.
07-30-2013, 03:02 PM
#10
Racer
You got lots of good replies. First though, can't be considering 911 in the same breath as Audis or BMW unless you are talking about the Audi super car or an M3 or M5 and even then, the comparison is not even.
So you really need to WANT a 911.
Snow: now this is a good topic. I drive mine year round. My only car. Here in NJ, roads are cleared fairly quickly so that's not a problem. People who don't live in the snow belt think that everyone goes out in heavy fresh snow, but here, only a very few brave souls venture out in heav snow. Most people tend 2 stay home then. The only real problem is really Black Ice: you don't see it and even with winter tires you can b caught unaware.
IMHO, if you really want a 911, you can go 4 it, knowing that proper maintenance is expensive but that P-cars are generally well built and that your major yearly expense is going to be tires as rears don't last much more than 12k miles if that. Competent winter tires are a must.
Unless you track you car, the loss of hp with a C4S is irrelevant as on public roads 0-60, 1/4 mile and top speed are not attainable. What you will enjoy is the total feel of the car, it's precise handling, the feel of quality and the made-to measure feeling you get. For myself, I am thrilled whenever I am behind the wheel, whether doing errands around town, going for a drive on country roads or tearing up or down a highway. It is a perfect daily driver.
So you really need to WANT a 911.
Snow: now this is a good topic. I drive mine year round. My only car. Here in NJ, roads are cleared fairly quickly so that's not a problem. People who don't live in the snow belt think that everyone goes out in heavy fresh snow, but here, only a very few brave souls venture out in heav snow. Most people tend 2 stay home then. The only real problem is really Black Ice: you don't see it and even with winter tires you can b caught unaware.
IMHO, if you really want a 911, you can go 4 it, knowing that proper maintenance is expensive but that P-cars are generally well built and that your major yearly expense is going to be tires as rears don't last much more than 12k miles if that. Competent winter tires are a must.
Unless you track you car, the loss of hp with a C4S is irrelevant as on public roads 0-60, 1/4 mile and top speed are not attainable. What you will enjoy is the total feel of the car, it's precise handling, the feel of quality and the made-to measure feeling you get. For myself, I am thrilled whenever I am behind the wheel, whether doing errands around town, going for a drive on country roads or tearing up or down a highway. It is a perfect daily driver.
In your PPI, in addition to leak checks, you might want to check the # of ignitions in range 1 and 2 as recorded by the car computer. it will give you an idea if the mileage jives with the odometer and crudely, how the car was driven at the high rpm ranges. Range 2 ignitions would be a show-stopper for me.
07-30-2013, 03:23 PM
#11
Race Director
^^ As a MINOR postscript to JMLavoie's words - if an engine has 800 hours and shows 16 range 2 ignitions (essentially, downshifts that cause the RPMs to exceed redline) that happened 700 operating hours ago, I wouldn't worry much.
If a car has dozens-hundreds of range 2 ignitions that occurred 10 hours ago, run away.
If a car has no range 1 ignitions, you should slap the current owner and provide him with a Prius brochure.
If a car has dozens-hundreds of range 2 ignitions that occurred 10 hours ago, run away.
If a car has no range 1 ignitions, you should slap the current owner and provide him with a Prius brochure.
07-31-2013, 12:34 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Minor maintenance is very DYI friendly (oil changes, brake pads, brake flush, belt change, battery change).
As a daily driver you WILL need new rear tires every 12-14K miles. 2 sets of rear for every set of fronts. All tires need to match brand, model, and N rating (if they are N rated).
These cars like to be driven. It seems garage queens are the cars to stay away from.
Both my old 04 and now my 07TT are daily drivers.
As a daily driver you WILL need new rear tires every 12-14K miles. 2 sets of rear for every set of fronts. All tires need to match brand, model, and N rating (if they are N rated).
These cars like to be driven. It seems garage queens are the cars to stay away from.
Both my old 04 and now my 07TT are daily drivers.
07-31-2013, 02:46 PM
#14
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Thanks for the advice everyone, some excellent posts, exactly what I was looking for! It sounds like I really need to just go drive all the cars I'm considering and see what I think. Sadly there are no C4s available locally right now that I can see. Some things to note / replies to what was posted...
I do track my cars----I go to open track days / TT sessions as much as possible, which ends up being 3-5 times a year depending on circumstances. Therefore I don't think something like an Allroad or Cayenne would work out for me.
I'm fortunate enough to be able to work from home in bad weather, so if there's more than 4" fresh snow I won't be driving in it. If I really needed to, I think I would just get a cheap truck specifically for that purpose. Also I buy winter tires for anything I think I'll be driving in the winter. And I wouldn't be opposed to installing some quality height-adjustable suspension and raising the car for the winter.
Speaking of tires...I assume we're talking 12-15K miles for summer / high performance tires? If so, that's not bad at all, about what I would expect. I don't drive more than that yearly, and I would have a separate set of tires (and/or wheels) for winter anyway. Gotta pay to play when it comes to tires.
@perfectlap, I'm not sure I get your post, considering that these cars have already gone through massive depreciation. Regarding price / availability: I'm pretty dead-set on a C4 or C4S 996.2 with a manual transmission. The market may be flooded with water cooled P-cars, but not with that particular combination. Here's an example cars.com search of what I'm looking for. Only 21 matches nationwide, and they're all in the $20K+ range.
@Dennis C - What's so bad about the ruts / potholes in the A-basin parking lot? I imagine these cars would have enough suspension travel to handle potholes at slow speed. Also I'm used to the ground clearance thing, my M3 is lowered, and possibly lower than a stock C4S 996.
@6ta1 - Regarding power...the 3.6L makes 320 at the crank, right? At this altitude we have to factor in an additional 15-20% power loss with a naturally aspirated engine, so figure 30% power loss conservatively and we're at 226 WHP. You'd also want to factor in some power loss with age I imagine. That's the same level as my M3. Curb weight of the M3 is about the same, too (~3200 lbs). So aside from the AWD, I'm not sure how a C4S 996 would be any faster.
I do track my cars----I go to open track days / TT sessions as much as possible, which ends up being 3-5 times a year depending on circumstances. Therefore I don't think something like an Allroad or Cayenne would work out for me.
I'm fortunate enough to be able to work from home in bad weather, so if there's more than 4" fresh snow I won't be driving in it. If I really needed to, I think I would just get a cheap truck specifically for that purpose. Also I buy winter tires for anything I think I'll be driving in the winter. And I wouldn't be opposed to installing some quality height-adjustable suspension and raising the car for the winter.
Speaking of tires...I assume we're talking 12-15K miles for summer / high performance tires? If so, that's not bad at all, about what I would expect. I don't drive more than that yearly, and I would have a separate set of tires (and/or wheels) for winter anyway. Gotta pay to play when it comes to tires.
@perfectlap, I'm not sure I get your post, considering that these cars have already gone through massive depreciation. Regarding price / availability: I'm pretty dead-set on a C4 or C4S 996.2 with a manual transmission. The market may be flooded with water cooled P-cars, but not with that particular combination. Here's an example cars.com search of what I'm looking for. Only 21 matches nationwide, and they're all in the $20K+ range.
@Dennis C - What's so bad about the ruts / potholes in the A-basin parking lot? I imagine these cars would have enough suspension travel to handle potholes at slow speed. Also I'm used to the ground clearance thing, my M3 is lowered, and possibly lower than a stock C4S 996.
@6ta1 - Regarding power...the 3.6L makes 320 at the crank, right? At this altitude we have to factor in an additional 15-20% power loss with a naturally aspirated engine, so figure 30% power loss conservatively and we're at 226 WHP. You'd also want to factor in some power loss with age I imagine. That's the same level as my M3. Curb weight of the M3 is about the same, too (~3200 lbs). So aside from the AWD, I'm not sure how a C4S 996 would be any faster.
07-31-2013, 02:55 PM
#15
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One last thing for now---can anyone comment on the performance of a C2 vs C4 on track? And by that I mean actual experience. If the AWD isn't all that great in the snow, I might start considering a C2. I've gone many winters with RWD-only cars, gotten stuck a few times, but generally due to not having good snow tires and/or icy conditions. Worst case scenario I get a pair of studded tires for the rear in the winter. But if the C4 is more enjoyable on track, for me that's a big thing to consider.