ptcolombo

If you've read my other post, in the market for a 996. Budget around $40k. I'm going nuts trying to reconcile prices. If I enter the exact same car, my hypothetical being a 2004 C4S cabriolet, 35k miles, silver, Outstanding/Excellent condition, and no major add on packages, Edmunds gives me $35k for private owner and $38.7 for retail. Seems OK, but you enter the same car into KBB and you get $49.9k for private and $54.3k for retail! Really, an almost $15k swing? What am I missing here? Any other pricing guidelines out there? Thanks

alpine003

There is always NADA.

Fwiw, specialty vehicles like this has never really been that accurate on the two mentioned. I tend to look at places like autotrader, cars, etc to get a more realistic representation of the market.

For example, I would never sell my e30 m3 according to those guides.

zirrah

No one would pay $54k for an '04 of that type. No chance. You can pick up an '06 pretty easily at that price.

Not a 4, but here's an example. Sloan is always full boat retail, you never see a deal at his asking prices.

http://sloancars.com/3735/2006-997-c...t-11621-miles/

LI911

I bought my 00 C2 Cab last month and found that they are both largely useless ranges. Pull up a car on ebay and use the ebay kbb link to get it's value, you'll find it's even worse. The "ebay" kbb values do not match the www.kbb.com values.

I actually did send one owner the Edmunds numbers as a negotiating tactic showing him my offer was inline with market but he still turned down the deal and we remained 2,500 apart.

I partially financed my car and can report that my bank used a number similar to the high KBB for value -not that it matters. I know people mention that the dealer uses the black book- I believe that shows up to date sales info - but others here would know more.

Perosnally the gauge I used was based on research -this board, other boards, typical car for sale sites, ebay and then trying to buy 2 other cars (where I could not get the owner or dealer to what I considered a fair price).

There was about a one week gap from the time I got an accepted offer (on the car I now own) and the PPI. The previous owner told me that during that week he took the car to the local dealer pretending he was buying another car and he said the trade in they we're willing to give him was the same price I was paying...I have no idea if he was truthful, but I don't think he had any reason to lie as the PPI was complete and I had given him the check. I'm also not sure if that means I got a good deal or not, but that was the price "I" was willing to pay. So does the dealer trade-in price represent market value? no idea.

The obvious advice is start low and negotiate from there based on how much you like/want the car. I think the more time you're willing to spend looking, the better chance you have to find a great deal. Easier said then done for most people (me included, I only spent 3 months looking).

rpm's S2

KBB is alway high. When I sold cars we used it to convince buyers they were getting a good deal.

There are no solid, absolute numbers available to the general public. Dealers use Black Book and they consult weekly wholesale auction prices to price their cars. If you know someone in the business they can give you real numbers.

Two valuations I like are Edmunds TMV and the website cargurus.com. Edmunds will usually be in the ballpark, while CG will give you averages based on actual cars listed for sale. One thing that will make a 2004 C4S cabriolet tricky is their relative rarity. Car Gurus only lists 17 for sale at dealerships nationwide. They may miss a few, but that is not a lot of inventory to choose from. Dealers know this and price accordingly.

Supply and Demand is not just an economic concept, it's a fact.

Good luck!

ptcolombo

Thanks, guys. I figured the truth lay in between. You are right there is no substitute for research.

pfbz

Clearbook (part of truecar) will give you 'black book' pricing, definitely more accurate than KBB...

They put retail/private/excellent/2004 C4S w/ 35K miles at $37,100 with a range of $35K - $39K. Seems about right...

But if that was my price range, i'd be looking for a 2002 Turbo with 50K miles, which books out at almost the exact same price spread.

ptcolombo

Point taken about the turbo. Thanks for the Clearbook lead.

mmahon04

While KBB and NADA may both be a bit high, Edmunds is laughably low on any car you look at, on any transaction type (private vs. dealer). Compare them to actual *auction* transaction prices via Manheim, or general asking prices on Autotrader. Unless Edmunds thinks you'll be able to get 35-40% off (starting!) every Autotrader asking price...I think I know who may be in the wrong.

My best guess is that they have failed to update their pricing logic in light of the massive used car price increases that happened post-2008.

Clearbook (I had not seen until this thread) seems to be getting closer, although still lowballing it. Their "price certainty" seems to have a low "confidence," if I can call it that, probably due to the very small sample sizes for any model year.

targa996

35k sounds about right for the example you quote

white out

+1 for a turbo in that price range.

LordVicious

trucar all the way! At this point $20k is about top end for a 996 anything (non-turbo). And at $20k we're talking full leather, convertible, immaculate condition. If your budget is $40k then you are firmly in 997 territory (or turbo.) I suggest buying as much as you can afford, getting past model year 06 or so might even get you a car that hangs on to a bit more value over time. Thats pure speculation on my part but one can always hope.

mmahon04

Have you shopped for either 996 NA's or 996TT's recently? I've had my eye on the market for Turbos for months now (had sourced one for my father, another was potential for a friend). High 30's @ 5x,xxx mileage is about as cheap as they come, in the kind of condition you'd like. You can always get lucky, but I don't bet on hope.

On Autotrader for NA 996's, the cheapest "Premium Listing" 996 is a 2001 with a blown engine @ 12.2k asking; highest is A 4S Cabriolet w/ ~10k miles @ 49.9k.
Out of "Featured Listings", cheapest is a 2001 theft recovery w/ damage, asking 13.7k; most expensive (from what I can see, page 10 of 10) is a 2003 4S w/ ~45k miles asking 39.9k.

Autotrader themselves have down an average price of $33,470 based on 1224 vehicles. Granted that number is a mean and not a median (so it will exhibit some upward drift due to GT3's, GT2's, and Turbos), but the small listed quantity of the "exotic" 911 line will not likely be enough to pull it up substantially.

I feel quite confident that a "median" base 996 (no Cabriolet, no S, no 4) with a solid history and ~65k miles, is roundabout a 19-20k proposition. Adjust for options, mileage, etc from there.

LI911

$20K for top end 996 anything (non-turbo) in immaculate condition? Maybe that's what you're hoping to find and maybe you will find one special situation...but your number does not represent market price. I saw a few beat up early MY996's that would have probably accepted 20K. Might also depend on your location.

20K for an immaculate 996...no I would not agree.

alpine003

FWIW, I seem to notice that the really GREAT deals don't last for more than a couple hours before being pulled down and the reason why people can't find or give proof or evidence of these said deals.

Thanks to the internet and all these bot type programs out there, the great ones get taken really really fast, and others that appear to be great on the surface have already been passed up by the initial vultures that inquired about them first and found something not to their liking, hence sloppy seconds.

I once undervalued something that I listed on eBay and it sold in less than 30 sec from when the ad went live. Fastest sale ever for me.