High iron and copper level in oil, next course of action
 

My used oil (5k miles) has ~25 ppm copper and ~18 ppm iron. Jake's expert opinion is that the rod bearings have been compromised. See https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=32590.

The car has 50k miles with oil change every 5k miles. Very well maintained and driven. Currently no symptoms and no oil leak. Engine feels smooth and strong.

Now obviously I'm not going to tear the engine apart at this point. My current plan is to try the following to slow down the wear, if possible.

1) JG break in oil + DT40
2) LN full flow oil filter adaptor
3) Filtermag
4) Oil change every 3k

I'm considering doing the above in stages so I can tell the difference of each change. However, Even though my car is a DD, I only put about 5k miles on it so the next oil change will be a year from now. That will take a few years to try all of the above.

Any other things you can think of that I should try?

IMS Guardian?

P.S. What did JR recommend?

I view that as something independent of the situation I'm trying to improve. IMS risk mitigation will need its own assessment. I must admit it's a big let down to me to see premature wear despite all the proactive and fequent maintenance.

These engines have 20+ modes of failure per Jake so really not sure what bandages to put on and how much more to invest....

His recommendation so far is to find a good local mechanic, although not clear if he meant to check out the car or just to maintain the car...

Couldn't you have just continued on with your other thread? There was good info there that brought your story full circle. :surr:

Hi Pete,

Yea I probably could have. However, I wanted this thread to focus on remedy because that's what will be useful to me at this point. The other thread is more about general info and diagnosis.

Hard to imagine the oil breaking down to the point some bearing metal (or valve guide metal IIRC it is bronze) appears in the oil and the engine sounds fine and runs fine. If there was any appreciable wear at the rod bearings I think you'd hear it. Valve guide wear maybe you'd hear it maybe not.

5K mile oil/filter changes is good. So it is hard for me to imagine how the oil is breaking down unless those 5K miles are racked up with itty bitty trips that have the oil loaded in no time with excessive water and unburned fuel.

In this case, the UOA should show this. So what is the water content from the UOA?

And what was the oil's viscosity?

If the water content was low and apparently this wasn't flagged by the UOA report and the viscosity is within the acceptable range and this wasn't flagged by the UOA report then I have to believe you inadvertently captured some particularly dirty oil unrepresentative of the engine's oil as a whole.

Maybe you didn't contaminate the oil? Maybe you just had the oil analyzed after the 5K mile oil sat in the engine a while and as it did so being acidic this resulted in a larger than normal amount of copper and iron in the oil. All the UOA tells you is what in this case metals are in the oil, and how much metal is in the oil, not how tht metal got in the oil. From metal to metal contact or from the violence of the oil under extreme pressure plucking metal grains from metal surfaces that have been etched/weakened by the corrosive effects of acidic oil.

However, unless there is other readings from the oil analysis that could at least partially confirm the oil was just past its change by date due to excessive water/unburned fuel build up along with acid build up then I'm going with you grabbed a dirty sample.

So, you could do an oil/filter change then run the engine say 500 miles and pull another oil sample and this time take extra care to get a clean sample that you are sure is presentative of the oil as a whole and have it analyzed and see what the report has to say.

Before you run the engine another 500 miles with fresh oil in it you might, if you want to go to the trouble, you might consider actually having the hot oil pressure measured.

If you want to pursue this some, Porsche calls out a hot oil pressure at high rpms, I forget the number, but it is something in the region of 5K rpms and 5 bar.

Before I did anything more than just an oil/filter change I'd consider having the hot oil pressure tested.

If it is ok... false alarm. As I touched upon above, if one is not careful aware of what he is doing one can contaminate the oil sample or get some particularly nasty oil that inflates the metal readings.

If the oil pressure is low I'd be skeptical just about anything outside of the engine you could do would help.

A thicker oil might help but you hear no noise so how can you tell the thicker oil helps? And the thicker oil might prove unsuitable for the healthy bearings with tighter clearances. So you give the worn bearings an extension on their life at the expense of the healthy bearings and other critical interfaces/fits in the engine.

All that break in oil combined with some super duper magical oil dour jour (I guess the web is fixing on this JT oil for now) sounds a bit silly. But of course I have no Porsche engine credentials and my oil selection methodology consists of letting the dealer service tech fill the engine from the tank of Mobil 1 0w-40 oil in the back room of the service department so what do I know?

Anyhow, if the engine is really tearing at the bearings and if you believe what you listed above would alleviate this wear I'd do all the above with no delay provided you are comfortable with a non approved oil in the engine and 3K mile oil/filter changes. And to leave no stone unturned, adding a rabbit's foot to your keychain.

Ok, so if bearings are really wearing and you choose the ineffective thing to do first the engine may not last another 5K miles.

Might point out the real reason for the lowering the metal in the oil would be the 3K mile oil/filter services. The oil is changed before the acid build up -- if this what is happening -- gets too bad and the UOA numbers look better and everyone is happy. You might however get the same result by just doing what you've been doing but changing the oil every 3K miles instead of 5K miles.

Also, I have to say this... you have a nice car with no symptoms with 50K miles backed with reasonably good service and you are going to stop doing what you've been doing and do something else based on what again?

Hi Macster, thanks for the very detailed and well thought out reply. Please see my UOA here Attachment 700570. Everything checks out except copper and iron (water content is 0.0, TBN is 6.7). Note there are two reports here, each covering 5k miles (1yr apart) so this has been going on for 2 yrs, at least. The car is my DD ~20 miles/day driven fully warmed up. Engine always warmed up and never lugged. Oil pressure is 1.5 bar @idle after engine fully warmed up and never lower than that.

The oil sample was collected straight from the drain hole in mid-air without touching the oil pan. The sample was collected midway during the drain so the initial gush and the end of the drain were skipped. Since both UOAs showed similar copper and iron levels, I have no reason to suspect bad samples.

I understand your comment about changing my oil choice because of these UOA. Frankly, I do NOT like non-OE stuff on my car unless they function better than the originals, anything from fluid to parts. However, in this case my thinking so far is my iron/copper levels are really a lot higher than most so it seems to be worth doing something to at least slow down the wear. All engines wear and it's just a matter of time when they die. The point is in what time frame. BTW, I'm aware of copper leaching and I certiainly hope that's the case but that doesn't explain why it happens only to my car but not others.

There's not much I can do other than improving the lubrication. Regarding DT40, I'm after the higher ZDDP although Motul already has 1,000+ ZDDP already. Also, if Jake is putting his own reputation on it, the oil cannot be junk. I do not have too much to loose by trying it and doing UOA to verify the results. If it reduces my copper/iron level significantly, I 'll keep using it. If not, I can always go back to Motul. Same logic applies to the full-flow filter. All these are reversible mods. Another possiblity is to try is Motul + full-flow filter first if I want P-approved oil.

Having said that, I'm very tempted to do nothing and just keep doing UOAs. Please share any more insights you have. Thanks! :cheers:

Come to think about it more, Macster. I like your idea about doing a UOA at 3k. That will give me one more important data point to consider before making significant changes.

Bingo....

+996, I would wait for one more sample just to make sure it wasn't a fluke.

Ahsai, I agree with the flush, then DT40, then analysis, but I would not wait one year. If I were that concerned then I would try an analysis at 1K intervals just to see whats going on. Either way looks like your at least trying to catch the problem (if there is one) before it grenades the engine.

Dont be discouraged, some people here really enjoy disagreeing with JR which makes no sense to me. Sometimes Im not sure if their kidding or not. I do however respect everyones opinion, especially the ones that are not "arm chair mechanics". Weigh the options and do what you think best because your paying the bills.

Macster, forgot to ask the above. My oil pressure (indicated by the gauge in the instrument cluster) is 3 bar@2k, 4bar@3k, 4.5bar@4k, and close to 5bar@5k.

BTW, I just thought of another potential option. To change to a slightly thicker approved oil - Mobil 1 5w-50, higher ZDDP and much higher Molybdenum. What do you think?

Thanks, Krazy. I understand where Pete and Macster are coming from and had expected their response. Their comments are in good faith as a reminder to me to avoid any knee jerk reaction like i think the sky is falling. So I do appreciate their responses.

I'm just concerned and not panicking for sure and am currently evaluating the next step carefully and logically (hence this thread).

Two FACTS that stand out:
1) My copper/iron level are indeed double the average
2) I collected the samples carefully and their readings are consistent for 2 yrs.

I think the best option so far like you and Macster said would be to get another UOA earlier than 5k. I think I'll just do it in 3k (in about half a yr) and see what happens.

I would also pull the sump plate and see if there is anything in there, then give it a good cleaning.

You might want to try a couple of low mileage oil changes. When I got my Box, iron 34 ppm, was through the roof on M1 at about 9k miles. I did a couple of flush oil changes, for about 1k miles each, then regular changes at 3k miles and the iron is down to around 7-9 ppm.

Thanks for the comments and useful data. I also have an LN magnetic drain plug that's only covered with a thin layer of fine metal dust. No metal flakes in the filter in any size and form. I'll consider opening the sump plate too. Maybe there's sediment of iron/copper there but I doubt it. I always change my oil when it's hot so the used oil will gush out and flush out all the crap.

I hope (and expect) my next 3k report will show iron/copper close to yours. 3k oil change sounds quite extreme to me though but if that's what it takes to keep the wear down....

Being an Aerospace Engineer and and doing regular SOAP (oil analysis) on aircraft I'm surprised that anyone would be doing this trending on a car (and a $25-$30K one at that).

It seems a little nuts IMO, we do it on a/c due to the results of a failure costs lives and they do it in F1 as a 5 position grid penalty for an engine change is better that losing all the points in a race. Doing it at a periodicity of 3-5K miles on a car??????:banghead::banghead:

Drive the damned thing or trade it in if your that nervous.

I guess I'm in the wrong industry that I don't have $25k-30k lying around that I don't care about. Doing UOA does not mean I'm nervous. It's just a way to monitor engine wear, and trying to catch any problems at the early stage. Some people chose extended warranty. Some ppl chose doing nothing. The root of the problem is some of these engines do break down prematurely. And for the cost of $15-20 every year, you think that is excessive?? :surr:

You bet I'm driving it everyday and I only wish I could drive it more!

I do agree with replacing some items that over the years have been determined to be wear items (AOS, RMS, IMS bearing) but monitoring oil for unusual PPM??? To what end -- tear down an engine in case something might break when you have no baseline from which to make this determination to potentially avoid a future catastrophic situation that may occur.

Geez the level of paranoia disguised as thoughtful discourse in the 996 forum is astounding IMO. I just watched these engines driving at red line for 24 hrs a week or so ago and you're worried about an arbitrary elevated copper level??

Fanny, I hope you didn't see the m96 specific oil thread. ;)

There are baselines if you are familiar with UOAs otherwise no point seeing a bunch of arbitrary numbers. If you read my first post, I'm merely suggesting to change to a different oil or potentially use the full-flow filter. Really no big deals and I really hope I'm not creating any panic in this forum :)

I can buy that approach but wear metal trending in a car engine is over the top (with the exception of high end racing and maturity trials for an OEM). I beleive the most cost effective way to run these cars in in accordance with the OEM service manual and by changing out the odd component that has proven to be problematic through experience. :thumbup:

Well, if you don't think $15-20 a yr for a vital piece of engine health info is worth it, I can't argue with you. UOA only sounds exotic :) Anyway, I agree about your other comments about replacing prone to fail parts :thumbup:

I drive a 2004 BMW as my daily. Several years ago, out of curiosity, I did an oil analysis, it showed rising copper levels. Concerned, I did a few more on subsequent oil changes, copper still rising - fast. Iron started rising too. I consulted an oil tribologist and asked for his opinion on my problem. He suggested a few maintenance items (I was already maintaining the car better than what most people might). He also suggested a change in oil brand/type.

After a while the copper and iron returned to normal.

I plan on taking this car to 250-300,000 miles so the long term longevity was/is important to me. In my case an oil analysis was very worthwhile and helped identify a problem I wouldn't have known about otherwise.

Edit: Tearing down the engine was exactly what I was trying to avoid, and I did that quite cheaply.
By the way, I fly for a living and it was an A&P who suggested I try the oil analysis. I'd always wondered about them and I'm glad I did it!

KNS, thanks for the very vivid story and that's exactly what I'm trying to do. Monitoring the long term wear and the oil. Since my RMS and clutch have only 25k on it (replaced before under warranty due to RMS leak and clutch defects), it will be a while before the next clutch job. Since there are no symptoms and the RMS/IMS area is dry, it doesn't make sense to replace the IMSB for now. UOA is a good and cheap insurance in my case.

I'm not sure why 'fanny bay' would discount an oil analysis, they're cheap. Yes, Porsche owners can certainly go overboard with just about any aspect of the car but a $20 UOA? I think if you did one once after you buy the car and if it looks good, cool, forget about it for a while and enjoy the car.

In my case I discovered a problem long before it became something big and expensive. How can you argue with that?

Completely agree. And Fanny's recommendation to follow the factory service intervals on this car (the 996) is short sighted.

Does anyone know how long a sample oil can sit in the container and still yield valid results? I used Blackstone back a few years ago on different cars, and had 2 clean sample containers from them to use.. $20 a year for knowing what condition the inside of your engine is in is chump change for huge gains in information. Fanny Bay is nuts to argue against them on any basis. People spend more than that on nothing, and this is valuable. Anyway, so while I took the correct samples (mid stream) and double sealed the containers, I just never got around to sending them in. So I have a 2010 and 2011 sample that I wonder if the results would even be valid. I assume they would, especially for wear metals. Maybe the water and acid reading would be off a little. Anyone?

Blackstone said 3 months is fine so not sure about 1 or 2yrs. May want to check with them first. You're probably right about metal contents should still be valid.

"I took a sample three months ago and forgot to send it in. It's been on a shelf in my garage ever since. Can I still send it in? Will the results still be good?
Should be fine."

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/faq.php

It's not the cost of the oil analysis that cost is immaterial - it's the driving an owner down a road of potential repairs that are both costly and potentially not required. It's incessant navel gazing that will more than likely direct you to undertake repairs that would have been fine if left alone - this is just my opinion you guys can do what you want but I don't believe it will save you a dime in the long run!!

More information is not always better!!

Possibly... Perhaps you missed my post above (#24). An analysis on my BMW found a problem long before it manifested into something bigger and potentially much more expensive. An easy and cheap correction solved the problem that a UOA picked up.

This is the way I interpreted it the first time. Sometimes I wonder if most of the 996 owners work on Wall Street or banking since a lot of things in those areas are also driven by overblown fear and speculation sometimes.

We have only "saved" one engine with UOA out of hundreds. Most of the time the issues manifest and go full circle within one oil service.

Interesting. Any comment on the ratio of saves for the Guardian thus far? Just curious if people send you the car after getting an alert all the time or not, for inspection at least.

Too many of those who have received an IMS Alert have pulled the system out and traded the car off to fail on someone else.

Unfortunately the system has turned into a "trade in alert". Not what we had hoped for or had expected.

Hi Jake, could you please clarify if you meant all those hundreds of engines all used UOAs and all of them failed except one was saved?

You guys misunderstood me. I was saying we have carried out hundreds of UOA and one engine saw elevated levels and was caught in time and saved before failure. That doesn't mean that the other engines have failed because the majority have not and some of those hundreds were multiple samples of the same engine.

Issues progress quickly. I use UOA an particulate evaluations during development more than anything.

Thanks for the clarification, Jake.

Wow, I would've never expected that too.

Exactly what would also happen with oil analysis!!:cheers:

Both valid points that many of us more honorable owners also never thought of, as we think about what it takes to keep our Porsche, but in hindsight, for the average Joe, it's obvious, isn't it? Bad consecutive oil reports, or IMS alert that metal is present, but it still runs fine, just change the oil and filter, and trade it in. I mean, in the used car market, that's almost the American way, isn't it?

I think it's a point that's worth its own debate. I fail to see it as a point for NOT doing UOAs.

Just got my UOA back

61,700 miles (4.5K on Mob 1 0W40)

Copper down from 23 to 14 (since last year with 4700 miles on Mob 1)
Iron down from 13 to10
Nothing else unusual ....

Looks like i might have spotted RMS or AOS leak however while I was under there - going to watch that carefully and then decide what to do ....

Thanks for the update, Targa. So anything changed that made the iron/copper level come down?

^^^^^ I like this guy :)

Ahsai - any update to this ?

I've driven almost 3k miles since my last Oil change so I should send in an UOA soon. Other than a corroded altenator/starter cable, everthing else seems fine.

Ahsai,

A thought/question/observation:
I have a C2 cab with 55k miles. Pretty close to your mileage. My UOA shows normal ranges for copper & iron with Motul 5-40. I change at 5k or 6 month intervals and always before winter sets in.
That is when the car drops from 3-4 days use to maybe as little as 1day in 2-3 weeks, depending on salty roads.

Looking back at some of the comments from Macster & others, about acids suspended in the oil, if you are running 5k or 3k oil changes that stretch to a year in the crankcase maybe the acid suspended in the oil is getting too long to work on your internal bits?

Hi Frank, happy 4th! Thanks for the thought and I think that's possible. I DD my car and do about 7k miles a year. The TBN of my 1yr old oil was still very good though according to Blackstone.

Anyway, will wait for the next UOA and go from there. Maybe all it needs is a more freq oil change like you said. Thanks for your thoughts again.

Btw, thanks for your alternator thread and info. I needed to replace the alternator cable so I just replaced my regulator with an equivalent from Pelican and it's working fine.

So .. What are you going to do if the bearings where bad ? Sell the car ? Rebuild engine and keep for another 50k ? If the car is worth say $30k why not sell and invest the extra 20k in a 997 for piece of mind ?

The engine is still running strong and no symptoms like before. But IF i end up selling my car for whatever reason, the 9A1 platform will be my #1 choice like you said. A 997.2 GTS will be ideal in terms of spec and what I like but they are still out of my price range. A 997.2 Carrera S will be great and within budget maybe in a few yrs...

991 is not very DIY friendly and it has too much complicated stuff. 997.2 is ideal because it'll be very similar to the 996 in terms of maintenance and repair sans the IMSB issue and all the other real or perceived engine weaknesses in the 996.

I looked at the UOA that you posted. TBN of 6 should have good margin of protection left. As I understand TBN 3 is *"Danger Will Rogers" territory.

Curious do you typically use one type of petrol?
Some fuel brands have more sulfur which beats up on the oil's alkalinity by forming higher levels of sulfuric acid as a byproduct of burning. Still TBN of 6 indicates the oil should still be protecting things.
Just trying to make some connections where there may be none.

After much scientific research by my wife we use Shell. This is because we get a 10% discount on a fill-up when we spend more than $100 on groceries in our local Stop & Shop super market...:roflmao:

*Ref to Campy 60's Lost in Space program.

Yes, I always use Chevron since there's one close to my house. However, there's not much gas detected in my oil samples if memory serves.

Latest UOA here. I was anxiously waiting.

Both copper and iron have improved. Oil had 4212 miles and 8 months on it (previous two tests were ~5k/1yr between tests). The only thing changed sinc last report were new coolant and the low temp thermostat.

So seems like shorter oil change interval and lower miles will keep it happy. Maybe the low temp thermostat helps a bit too :)

Attachment 767358

Good news !

Indeed! I'm gonna try 6 month oil change interval next time because I highly suspect time plays a big roll here.

Don't add another variable by changing to a different brand oil or filter. Stick with OEM, use the same oil, and get a syringe and some small dia pipe, run your engine to get it warm and thoroughly mix the oil and take the sample from the dipstick tube. The syringe and pipe will only cost you a couple of $ use a clean one every sample and you have a consistent method for sample.
I'd carry on running the engine, in my experience of motorcycle rod bearing going, if they pick up they go pretty fast, if your engines running fine then leave it and just do 2 or 3 k oil samples

Agree about not adding other variables. That's why I didn't change anything other than shortening the interval to 4k/8 months and that seems to work as seen in the latest report. The low temp thermo was added as a maintenance item when I changed the water pump.

Btw, not a good idea to use a tube to extract oil. One guy did that and the the tip of the rubber tube got nipped by the struture inside the oil pan. He ended up dropping the oil pan to retrieve the piece.

Latest report with metal numbers continue to improve (9 months and 4k miles on oil). It's interesting to note for this report, I had done A LOT of 0-60 runs at redline yet the metal numbers are not higher. As you can see from all the reports, 4k/9 months oil change interval seems to be good for my engine.

Everything is the same for all these reports except this one and the last one were after the water pump/coolant/low temp thermostat change. Not suggesting anything. Could be just a coincidence. I'm happy anyway :burnout:

Attachment 853332

lucky you didnt send your "terminal' engine off for repair originally!!, great news its running fine

I was not even remotely considering that with zero symptoms, quiet and smooth running engine :)

So you've gone 2 changes now, 8K+ miles with good OA's? That's good news! I expected to see something on the filter or possibly stuck to the housing where my filter mag is attached but nada when I cut open the last one.

Yes, 2 oil changes 8k+ miles with good numbers. Still can't explain the high numbers I got initially as I've been using the same oil many years BEFORE my 1st UOA and the car has always been my DD.

I have a magnetic oil plug and it has a light coat of metal dust on it but it's minimal. No flakes on the filter at all.

BTW, I've plotted the metal content vs time and mileage. You can see that the metal content is proportional to mileage. This makes me believe the (normal) metal wear is mechanical as opposed to chemical.

Attachment 853572

Whether the metals show up due to suspected acid action or mechanical wear it still disturbing to me to see bearing metals showing up in an oil analysis.

The presence of those metals indicate wear is taking place and leads me to think the oil is not up to the rigors to which you are subjecting it, or you are running the oil past its change by date.

But the metal levels are down to average now (11 - 13 ppm). They will not go to zero for any engine, right? Or you think 11-13ppm is still very high?

Congrats on not overreacting and letting things play out. Does your motor use any oil in between the 4k change?

Thanks Alpy. Yes, it uses ~1qt oil/1400 miles since new (I bought the car when it was 2yrs old and had 2500 miles on it).

Wow. Im kind of jealous at the thought you might get to rebuild yours soon. Kind of wish mine would shed some metal so I could drop it again and rebuild it!

Just don't tell the guys with blown engines! :)

I don't think mine needs a rebuild anytime soon though. Hope I don't jinx myself haha

Ahsai,
Congrats on the 2 good UOA results.:thumbup::cheers:

Thanks, Frank :cheers:

I'd follow up with visual sump and filter inspections at every oil service for a good while. Its not common for an issue to be that pronounced and then just fade away.

Or perhaps you got someone' else's results the first time around.. That wouldn't new the first time thats happened.

Thanks Jake for your suggestions. I've been inspecting the filter for a long time, way before my first UOA and I've never found anything. I've never opened the sump though. Can I stick an inspection camera into the drain hole and check? Will the debris (if any) collect close to the drain hole? i realize the oil baffle is there so I can't see the whole bottom.

I think it's unlikely I got someone else's samples as both of my first two UOA reports (1yr apart) indicated high metal content.

Latest UOA here. Everything looks normal. The extra make up oil could be due to the defective AOS (22" H2O) I ran for a short period of time.

Attachment 939130

Thx for the update.

It's not completely unheard of to have the metals drop. On my '04 BMW 325i I had watched (through analysis) my copper number (into the 20s) and then iron start to climb. I switched oils, from the BMW (Castrol) 5W-30 to Rotella T6 5W-40, stopped using Chevron gas and more Shell gas, and reduced the oil change intervals. I had heard Chevron gasoline can cause copper wear in some instances (that's before I'd read post 53 in this thread) - I have no idea how much truth there is to that.

Oil change intervals went from 7500 miles to 5000 and now have been doing 6500 miles for a while now. I drive about 25,000 miles year on the 325i so I could watch the changes over a quick time span.

Copper and iron are in the single digits now. I can't say if it was one or a combination of the above changes that did the trick. I think oil was the biggest contributor.
Currently have 191,000 miles in the BMW and numbers are still good.

One reason the levels dropped is because the AOS failed and the engine consumed more oil... Fresh oil was added.

I see lots more from that UOA trail than wear metals, but next time pay for the TBN & TAN values, or send the sample to someone other than Blackstone.

Jake, which other oil analysis companies would you recommend? Would be good if you could elaborate on what you saw more if you don't mnd sharing your knowledge. Thanks!

My engine builder only recommends sending oil in if a problem is suspected or if you're really interested in keeping track of what's going on. Also, this isn't really a one shot and done deal. The best way to do samples is keep doing them over the course of the vehicle, then you can tell more about what things are going on.

For those of us not running racing engines (we aren't, unless we race), or have suspesions of an issue, sending in an oil sample may be just another way to lose sleep over nothing.

Without established trend data its very difficult to identify an issue within an engine using UOA. I have some engines that have been tracked since 1999 and the trends that they set with various oils tell us so much about the oil, and the engine, including when that particular engine should be serviced.

Every engine we build is watched closely for it's first year, while under warranty. Every oil service has a sample sent in, and we watch the trends starting with the break in service, through two stages of intermediate oil, and then the changeover to synthetic service oil.

I don't lose sleep over having information. I lose sleep over the things I don't know, and without trend data, you don't know much.

If you aren't going to establish a trend, don't bother sending in UOA when you think there's a problem, because by then the particles may be too large to be detected in a standard, non- particulate UOA.

Ahsai-I had a very similar experience. When I first bought the car, it had 115k miles. I wasn't sure how many miles were on the oil but the PO seemed to follow a 10k OCI.

Well, after the 1st oil change, the oil report came back with iron at 34. I didn't panic (too much) and did a series of 3 short OCIs, at around 1k miles each. The iron went down to below 10 at 3k oci and now I'm doing 5k ocis and the iron stays around 10.

Thanks. My currnt plan is to keep monitoring. If it gets worse or any symptoms show up, I plan to rebuild the engine.

Exactly!
Thats what UOA is for! To gather trend data and help determine the exact service interval that is best for YOUR engine, in YOUR environment, using a particular oil.

Its how you keep your engine alive, and its what you do when you finally figure out the guys at the factory had a different agenda for dictating service life than keeping your do.

Gathering hundreds of UPA is how I came up with my 6 month/ 5K mile service plan.

Jake, I've added TBN and particle count results here. Your feedback will be appreciated. Also, any recommendation on other UOA labs? TIA

Attachment 946067

You guys make me smile. The best way to protect the engine is to drive the thing. Not short trips as you are doing. Blow some **** out of it every couple of days or daily. Put more miles on it and then have your oil tested again. You will see a notable difference.

I DD mine and do ~7.5 k miles per yr. Not sure where you got the idea of short trips.

I DD mine and going to put around 12k miles on in 7 months.

No short trips here either, and no intentions of pulling oil samples.

Trust me, I'd love to put that much if I could. Maybe after I retire :)

UOA is not for everyone, no intention whatsoever to convert anyone.

Hopefully the city fixes a few roads by the river so I can motorcycle into work, but I can't complain about driving the car. :thumbup:

Clutch is going to get shot sooner rather than later due to 80% of those miles being in the city.

The 996 is a great car for any trip, short or long. I've taken trips of 1k+ miles, 8 hrs straight driving w/o any issues :thumbup:

WOW, that's an average speed of 110+ mph! :bowdown:

Hahaha, 1k was round-trip.

110mph for 8hrs I think I will break down first, not the car.

My 2cents
 

I think Jake's on to something here...like his 'tude or not, he's an expert.

By way of comparison ('99 996 w/80K, DD, never tracked; oil/filter changed annually or at 5K, whichever comes first...always use M 1 oil; bone stock and all original), here is my data: Iron = 4-7 ppm; Copper = 1-3 ppm. The first number is the lowest measure (w/ 3300 miles on oil) and the second number is the highest measure (w/about 6K miles on oil).

While its probably impossible to know for sure, I doubt that the changes you're considering will rectify the causes.

relinuca

Latest UOA here Attachment 1087354

Hello,
I came across this thread (and first time posting, albeit second Porsche and hours of reading here) as I received similar results as the initials ones here on my analysis today. The oil ran at 5800k miles, 0-40 Mobil, I have added 4qts and been on two long road trips in the summer months with several hours of twisties per day on each trip (California coast). The consumption seems half of what is Porsches "normal" but I plan to switch oil brand as I did with good results on my previous car (a 986). My current car is a `03 996 that just passed 100k on the ODO.

My readings of concern are:
Alu 9
Iron 20
Copper 20
Manganese 20

Other than that all is great, viscosity like new, no water fuel or coolant present. Engine runs strong with good pressure.

I will do another sample in 3k miles, but was wondering if you still have this engine running strong Ahsai?

Thank you.

I was thinking the same thing. Also, if there is any crud in the sump, it could skew future results.

Mine is beyond 80k still running strong. How many miles on the used oil?

Fantastic. Thank you. The used oil ran at nearly 6k miles wherein I added 4 quarts along the way. And it was run pretty hard on two extensive road trips in the summer heat with no hiccups. So I am hoping this metal wear might be temporary. I will also have the oil pan examined and cleaned and will come back with an update after the next analysis when I hit a 3k mark this time.

The car has passed 100k on the clock and feels like new still — and I drive it likes it’s stolen. I put 40k on my previous car (986 Boxster) in three years and it was still pulling strong when I sold it at 145k with clean oil analysis and original IMS.

Mine has higher than most copper and it's at about 6 or 7 PPM with about 4K miles on an oil change. There is an oil change thread here where everyone posts their numbers, tons of data, here is the link to mine:

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post14662922

Thank you. This is very helpful. I should also ask my mechanic on whether he sourced my sample from the filter canister or the oil running out of the car.