white out

Sounds like bad engine mounts.

Nick

Macster

Ferrous metal bits in an older engine that has not been opened up is troubling enough but coupled with change in idle smoothness....

I do not wish to be an alarmist but you could be tempting fate with your on-going attempts to self-diagnose this.

IOWs, everytime you start the engine run the engine at all you are tempting the engine gods.

I do not think dropping the oil sump pan is worth the effort. The pump oil pickup is very close to the bottom of the sump and if a piece is small enough to make it through the rather coarse screen it gets inhaled and run through the pump and comes out in tiny bits and ends up in the oil filter or oil filter housing oil.

If there are bigger pieces that can't fit through the screen I think you'd know it from how sick the engine was running. These engines do not have a lot of superfluous ferrous metal to shed. Every piece of ferrous metal is significant in that it is present at all.

If you want a next step -- though as I started out with above any engine run time at this stage is very very risky and ill-advised -- would be to diagnosis the source of that noise.

(It now occurs to me that maybe you removing the oil sump is better than possibly pointing you to doing anything that involves starting/running the engine...that removing the oil sump vs. running the engine is the lesser of two evils.)

But you are a big boy I believe able to make the best decision for you. But take your time. You are playing for rather high stakes in this endeavor.

Ok, so if you are willing to accept the risk any engine running brings with it if you can id the noise coming from up under one or the other camshaft cover that suggests the noise is a bad lifter or a broken valve spring. The latter especially can account for the ferrous metal bits in the oil. They are the remnants of a fragment of the valve spring. Less likely a bad lifter sheds any metal. They just get noisy they do not (very rarely anyhow) they do not come apart.

If you determine the noise is *not* coming from under the camshaft covers but from deeper inside the engine you're done. Shut off the engine pronto.

Winch the car onto a flat bed and get it to a qualified shop ASAP.

In fact even if you find the noise is coming from under a camshaft cover that is not a repair job someone wants to undertake and it is a not a repair job I would entrust to any place other than a Porsche dealer service department or barring one being available then entrusting it to a highly recommended indy who specializes in Porsches.

Really then the best advice would be to get the car to a qualfied shop and let any attempt to id the source of noise take place there. In this case you want to make every second the engine runs count.

Otherwise, the diagnosis has to be done by I would guess removing the engine and tearing it down and inspecting/examining suspected components for signs of distress this process keeps going until the tech is sure he knows the full extent of the engine's condition.

Then the appropriate repairs can be decided upon.

Sincerely,

Macster.

jsoderbe

Hi,

I did some reading up on the engine mounts, and that could actually be the source for my vibrations. I have to look into that when I am home after my current business trip. They are really cheap and probably worth changing anyway.

There might be more than one reason for my issues. It might be a combination of an air leak, engine mounts and an unknown rattle source.

I'm still not entirely sure about the oil. To me the amount of debris seems pretty normal; I guess if I say that it always had this much material in the filter, and I multiply the debris found over 2000 miles compared with 120 k total miles, the total amount of material in the filter over the car's lifetime would be similar to or less than a pea. Not that I am disregarding the great advice above, I will definately look further before I use the car again, but I have to say that it seems pretty normal to me.

So I think I will do 3 things this weekend; remove the oil pan, check the engine mounts, and try to isolate the rattle.

I might have been unclear about a few things; the idle have always been slightly lumpy, and have not progressed. The rattle I don't know, but it have not gotten worse since I discovered it maybe 1000 miles ago. The vibrations have gotten worse, though.

My ongoing problem is that there is no shop where I live, or anywhere within a 100 miles, that I consider to be "qualified". The stealership an hour away charges at least $300 + tax per hour here in Sweden, and their only advantage is that they have a more advanced diagnostics setup than my Durametric. To have them remove the valve covers and check springs would easily cost $2500. So I am pretty sure this will be my last 996, I need to buy a car I can get local help for. Most likely an Audi RS5 or BMW M3.

But first I need to get this one running as it should, and preferably enjoy it over the winter.

Your advice is very appreciated, please keep any thoughts or ideas coming.


Regards,

Johan

jsoderbe

Hi guys,

I woke literally up in the middle of the night, remembering a strange oil puddle under the rear bumper a few months ago. I thought it was strange since the oil didnt look like motor oil, more like very blueblack oil mixed with water. Unfortunately I only thought it was some leftover from the AOS failure, and disregarded it. Now it seems like it was the motor mounts breaking. Arent they using oil in them?

I dont know how to diagnose this, I tried to jack the engine up but the body started moving pretty much at the same time. The engine cross bar seems to hang just an inch below the mount, which looks pretty normal to me.

Stupidly enough I have looked at the tail pipes for several weeks now, wondering why someone didnt put them closer to the bumper cutouts....

So I ordered new ones. With some luck the rattle might be related to this as well, meaning the vibrations have caused some wear in the exhaust, or simliar. Future will tell!


Regards,

Johan

jsoderbe

Well, it turned out to be the engine mounts. I bought two new ones, $200 shipped, and replaced them yesterday. Now the vibrations are gone, the rattle are gone and I cant feel any issues with the idle either!

One of the mounts was cracked without any oil left in it, completely shot to pieces. The other one bursted while I was replacing the first one, but it must have been compromized before. The reason I think so is that both tail pipes raised about 3/4" afterwards....

I hammered down on the exhaust while it was jacked up, and found the left tail pipe to rattle somewhat. I would guess that the excessive vibrations from the non-functioning motor mounts somehow made a weld inside the tip give. And since the vibrations got worse and worse, so did the rattle. Now, without vibrations, no rattle!

The idle is still a little mystery. I will post a clip to youtube when I can get the login to work, but I cant feel anything wrong with it. Might have been the vibrations, once more. But, my Durametric still showed high "rough running" values, and that cant be from bad motor mount vibrations....

Thanks all, especially the two of you that made me think about the motor mounts. This is a great forum, I wouldnt have started looking after engine mount failure symptoms without this thread!

Regards,

Johan

Barn996

The WINNER!+1

Macster

Noises that could be coming from inside the engine; rough running engine; coupled with other things often arise from a sick engine.

Glad it proved to be the mounts and not something more serious.

I'm still a bit troubled by the ferrous debris in the oil but if you are ok with it then so am I.

Sincerely,

Macster.

jsoderbe

Hi again,

so, finally gave up on Youtube and used ol' reliable Photobucket to post my video:




And a picture on my fingertip with the ferrous material from the magnet. It is easier to see on a light background.



Please let me know your thoughts.

The car runs "silky smooth", like the sewing machine it was when I first got it. I can't believe I didnt use it for 6 weeks just because I had bad engine mounts.... :-(


Regards,

Johan

Byprodriver

Those bits on your finger do look smaller. I would change the oil & filter & check the filter again in 1,000 miles.

Macster

Well, absent any other signs of engine trouble -- I guess the new mounts cured the vibration and the hesitation and the "valve train noise" -- and with no other bits of seals or bearings or bearing cages or chain tensioner/guide composite plastic present the small amount and small size of the ferrous bits don't look that bad...

It is not impossible for a bit of ferrous metal to come loose and after going through the oil pump ending up as some tiny bits of metal in the oil filter housing oil/filter element.

I note too you had the AOS done a while back and any time an engine is disturbed this can increase the amount of trash/debris that is found in the oil filter housing oil and the oil filter element.

Still I'm bothered by it.

Up to you, of course, but you might consider getting some of that filter housing oil analyzed to know what you can't see by your eyes is in the oil.

Do not send in what's on your finger you'll get some way out (and scary ppm) readings.

Ideally the oil sent in wants to be a sample of oil that is representative of oil's contents, with such a sample not selected from a particularly dirty place like the oil filter housing (which tends to get loaded with stuff that is prevented from going through the filter but is not trapped/held by the filter element fibers) nor from oil that has risen to the top after being drained and allowed to stand around.

(Some of the big rig oil change shops use the first technique... there's 10 or more gallons of very expensive engine oil, a large oil filter, and labor cost in the balance...)

One technique is as the oil is draining about midway through the drain -- though it can be messy to obtain this sample -- you want to capture a cup or two of this oil in a *clean* container and get this oil into a suitable container to have analyzed.

If you have an appropriate oil analysis container handy you can capture the oil directly in this and seal it.

Or you could do an oil/filter change and be sure to clean the oil filter housing thoroughly.

Then after some engine run time remove the oil filter housing and dump its contents out and see what you can see.

Now the question becomes how long do you run the engine.

Well, as another poster suggested 1000 miles and that's a good number, provided and this is important, provided you be very on your toes and at the first sign of engine trouble shut the engine off and do not try to limp it home, restart it, etc, but get the car to a shop for trouble shooting.

Sincerely,

Macster.