What's this noise? Bad clutch...again?
12-21-2011, 10:12 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Slave cylinder for clutch. Mounted above transmission.
Master cylinder for brakes. Mounted in front trunk.
997_rich and speed rII might be on to something. Where is the evidence of the clicking noise when everything is pulled apart. There is probably going to be some rubbing somewhere. On a sensor, on the bell housing. Or inside of something. You need to find it.
+1 to Macsters comment, have the car on a lift someone operating it, and look for yourself where approximately is the noise coming from. Since you've had it in the shop for so long, why haven't they provided this info.
Master cylinder for brakes. Mounted in front trunk.
997_rich and speed rII might be on to something. Where is the evidence of the clicking noise when everything is pulled apart. There is probably going to be some rubbing somewhere. On a sensor, on the bell housing. Or inside of something. You need to find it.
+1 to Macsters comment, have the car on a lift someone operating it, and look for yourself where approximately is the noise coming from. Since you've had it in the shop for so long, why haven't they provided this info.
12-21-2011, 10:16 PM
#17
Not that I have broken everything there is to break in my 40+ yrs of cars
Possibly the main clue of diagnosis can be found in the noise not being present during load on driving. Maybe maybe not. But more possible is the in our face clue of the already replaced parts hint hint wink wink. What would throw the clutch out of wack? Er uhhhh.........darn I forget what could do that. Oh well I'll take my senility some place else........like the dealership since my new engine is in town waiting for new transmission mounts......I didn't break it, it just broke
12-21-2011, 10:17 PM
#18
Race Director
Macster,
Those are terrific questions and suggestions. The answer to all of your first set of questions is "yes". There does not appear to be any slippage or difficulty in shifting. All gears are smoothly engaged, no stickiness. The car takes off great.
The only thing I personally have not done is get under the car while idling. But I would have to think that my indy already did that and did not find an external problem with the linkages. The Porsche dealer that originally tried to fix this problem definitely did do this and reported no problems. Engine and transmission mounts all look good, and the main transmission crankshaft is centric with no evidence of wobbling, catching, or bend.
I had the noise going on for about 1 year until the clutch failed and the splines were found to be sheared. We (meaning indy) chalked it up to bad manufacturing but of course, Porsche did not see it that way. I'm wondering with the ongoing noise (whatever the source) for that long eventually wore down the splines???
I think my next move will be to swap out the master clutch cylinder, since this is the only item that has not been addressed. I can't give you a reason why this would work or not, but I'm desperate to get this fixed before I get stranded again.
Those are terrific questions and suggestions. The answer to all of your first set of questions is "yes". There does not appear to be any slippage or difficulty in shifting. All gears are smoothly engaged, no stickiness. The car takes off great.
The only thing I personally have not done is get under the car while idling. But I would have to think that my indy already did that and did not find an external problem with the linkages. The Porsche dealer that originally tried to fix this problem definitely did do this and reported no problems. Engine and transmission mounts all look good, and the main transmission crankshaft is centric with no evidence of wobbling, catching, or bend.
I had the noise going on for about 1 year until the clutch failed and the splines were found to be sheared. We (meaning indy) chalked it up to bad manufacturing but of course, Porsche did not see it that way. I'm wondering with the ongoing noise (whatever the source) for that long eventually wore down the splines???
I think my next move will be to swap out the master clutch cylinder, since this is the only item that has not been addressed. I can't give you a reason why this would work or not, but I'm desperate to get this fixed before I get stranded again.
I hate to throw parts at a symptom but sometimes that's the right thing to do.
It also gets you or someone up close to the engine/transmission and maybe something will be spotted that others missed.
Sincerely,
Macster.
12-21-2011, 10:24 PM
#19
Race Director
Let me add in a separate message that along with looking at the various hardware, hardware mounting points, etc., listening via a mechanic's stethescope in order to as good as possible locate from exactly where the noise is coming goes a long way to helping one identify the reason for the noise.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Sincerely,
Macster.
12-22-2011, 02:16 AM
#20
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Now that I have given more thought on this one, I'l bet that it's the transmission bearing. Misalingnment in mainshaft could eat the splines fast, allso it's hard to diagnose when the gearbox is out. There is always some "slack" in the mainshaft.
I think that the noise is coming from the ballbearings running with out the gage/holder.
Btw, would you be interested to sell that flywheel??
I think that the noise is coming from the ballbearings running with out the gage/holder.
Btw, would you be interested to sell that flywheel??
12-22-2011, 01:38 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=speed rII;9122231]Now that I have given more thought on this one, I'l bet that it's the transmission bearing. Misalingnment in mainshaft could eat the splines fast, allso it's hard to diagnose when the gearbox is out. There is always some "slack" in the mainshaft.
This is my guess also. Try calling California MotorSports & talk to Roger & send him your video link.
This is my guess also. Try calling California MotorSports & talk to Roger & send him your video link.
12-22-2011, 03:12 PM
#22
agree on the trans input shaft after hearing this. this will bounce around when there's no load on it. when there's load on it, it will push to one side and you won't hear the clattering.
when the spline on the friction plate was trashed, nothing was done to the splined trans input shaft? how does it look? I'll bet when you remove the trans you can grab the input shaft and feel slight joysticking when you put force on it.
when the spline on the friction plate was trashed, nothing was done to the splined trans input shaft? how does it look? I'll bet when you remove the trans you can grab the input shaft and feel slight joysticking when you put force on it.
12-24-2011, 01:48 PM
#23
Banned
Thread Starter
The trans input shaft splines did not appear to be damaged when we took a look at it. I did not give too much attention to the lateral play in the shaft when the gearbox was out. It didn't necessarily look abnormal or different from an input shaft without this noise issue. We were more focused on catching something that was causing the input shaft to maybe temporarily seize up. But we found that the shaft moved smoothly and without difficulty.
All 3 mechanics have had assistants underneath the car look for any unusual wobbling of parts and there has been nothing too unusual. They all agree the sound is coming from the bell housing which is why the clutch/flywheel/throwout bearings have been swapped out so many times. However, they have found no other evidence of wear or scratching in or around the bell housing to identify the source of the noise.
The funny thing is that there's no initial noise for 1-7 days following the replacement, and eventually the same noise is back. This last time, this noise came back as I was driving home with the car. With the exception of the Porsche dealer, I do think that the other 2 mechanics who have worked on this problem are knowledgeable and trustworthy. They simply can't figure it out and will not pretend that they know how to fix the issue.
The noise (and vibration) is also very palpable in the clutch pedal when depressing it to a critical point (approx 1/3 the way down). Once past that point, the noise goes away. Also, the noise is not necessarily present when the car is cold. Only after 5 min or so of driving does the issue act up. I'm also able to make it go away sometimes when I push the clutch to this "critical" point and release it gently.
speed rII - I don't know if I'm quite ready to sell the flywheel yet. I want to hold onto it until I figure out why I'm having this issue. But PM me an offer.
All 3 mechanics have had assistants underneath the car look for any unusual wobbling of parts and there has been nothing too unusual. They all agree the sound is coming from the bell housing which is why the clutch/flywheel/throwout bearings have been swapped out so many times. However, they have found no other evidence of wear or scratching in or around the bell housing to identify the source of the noise.
The funny thing is that there's no initial noise for 1-7 days following the replacement, and eventually the same noise is back. This last time, this noise came back as I was driving home with the car. With the exception of the Porsche dealer, I do think that the other 2 mechanics who have worked on this problem are knowledgeable and trustworthy. They simply can't figure it out and will not pretend that they know how to fix the issue.
The noise (and vibration) is also very palpable in the clutch pedal when depressing it to a critical point (approx 1/3 the way down). Once past that point, the noise goes away. Also, the noise is not necessarily present when the car is cold. Only after 5 min or so of driving does the issue act up. I'm also able to make it go away sometimes when I push the clutch to this "critical" point and release it gently.
speed rII - I don't know if I'm quite ready to sell the flywheel yet. I want to hold onto it until I figure out why I'm having this issue. But PM me an offer.
12-24-2011, 01:54 PM
#24
Banned
Thread Starter
Macster - My mechanic doesn't think it's the slave cylinder or master clutch cylinder, but I'm with you on this one. I think trying to do a quick swap of the master cylinder may be an inexpensive option to possibly find a solution. I can't help but think that the hydraulics of the clutch may be out of whack, where the adjustment is not quite correct. I'm also not sure if I have a faulty master cylinder. I have read posts from others that they did note broken seals when they did the swap. Is there a good DIY out there on this?
12-26-2011, 10:43 AM
#25
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My car started making the same sound yesterday! The sound only occurred when the car was in neutral, but as soon as i pushed in the clutch pedal it went away, and if I played with the clutch in and out it would stop making the noise even when in Neutral.
I thought I could hear the sound driving in gear though too (I was at low RPM coasting). Let me know what you find!
BTW. My car as 50K mi with original clutch/flywheel.
I thought I could hear the sound driving in gear though too (I was at low RPM coasting). Let me know what you find!
BTW. My car as 50K mi with original clutch/flywheel.
12-26-2011, 06:08 PM
#26
Race Director
Macster - My mechanic doesn't think it's the slave cylinder or master clutch cylinder, but I'm with you on this one. I think trying to do a quick swap of the master cylinder may be an inexpensive option to possibly find a solution. I can't help but think that the hydraulics of the clutch may be out of whack, where the adjustment is not quite correct. I'm also not sure if I have a faulty master cylinder. I have read posts from others that they did note broken seals when they did the swap. Is there a good DIY out there on this?
I only went along with your wanting to change these because doing so is less expensive than removing the transmission and possibly the engine and determining what is wrong.
If the root cause of the symptom can't be determined from someone under the car with another person operating the clutch then I do not see a cheap/easy solution.
My thinking is that someone with experienced eyeballs would spot something amiss and from this would at least have a pretty clue as to what's going on.
Sincerely,
Macster.
12-27-2011, 01:04 PM
#27
Banned
Thread Starter
Point taken, Macster. I absolutely agree with you. My comment/decision was one out of desperation and not wanting to drop out the transmission again for something that still seems so uncertain. I will be getting the car over to another experienced set of eyes/ears before doing anything else. I think Tony Callas in SoCal may be a good person to take a look.
Skotch13 - sorry to hear you're having the same problem. I think the sound you hear at low speeds is a type of growl as the engine is at the threshold of lugging. I don't think that's abnormal. I had that looked at as well, thinking it had something to do with the clutch noise I described. Other more experienced people have driven my car and note that it's a normal sound variant at that low speed. Also, if it were the sound of gears grinding you would see some metal fragments in the transmission fluid, which I have never seen in mine.
Skotch13 - sorry to hear you're having the same problem. I think the sound you hear at low speeds is a type of growl as the engine is at the threshold of lugging. I don't think that's abnormal. I had that looked at as well, thinking it had something to do with the clutch noise I described. Other more experienced people have driven my car and note that it's a normal sound variant at that low speed. Also, if it were the sound of gears grinding you would see some metal fragments in the transmission fluid, which I have never seen in mine.
01-04-2012, 06:55 PM
#28
The trans input shaft splines did not appear to be damaged when we took a look at it. I did not give too much attention to the lateral play in the shaft when the gearbox was out. It didn't necessarily look abnormal or different from an input shaft without this noise issue. We were more focused on catching something that was causing the input shaft to maybe temporarily seize up. But we found that the shaft moved smoothly and without difficulty.
Pac996: the shaft is a snug fit. The problem would be loosness in the trans or bearings.
All 3 mechanics have had assistants underneath the car look for any unusual wobbling of parts and there has been nothing too unusual. They all agree the sound is coming from the bell housing which is why the clutch/flywheel/throwout bearings have been swapped out so many times. However, they have found no other evidence of wear or scratching in or around the bell housing to identify the source of the noise.
Pac996: Here's where I'd start focussing on other than what has been replaced multiple times because either bad parts from factories have been installed multiple times or something else is the actual problem like the already aluded to trans.
The funny thing is that there's no initial noise for 1-7 days following the replacement, and eventually the same noise is back. Pac996: From what I recall new clutches will drag a bit which would be like having the clutch out a little which would be giving a little engagement to the clutch which is when the noise disapperas.This last time, this noise came back as I was driving home with the car. With the exception of the Porsche dealer, I do think that the other 2 mechanics who have worked on this problem are knowledgeable and trustworthy. They simply can't figure it out and will not pretend that they know how to fix the issue.
The noise (and vibration) is also very palpable in the clutch pedal when depressing it to a critical point (approx 1/3 the way down). Once past that point, the noise goes away. Also, the noise is not necessarily present when the car is cold. Only after 5 min or so of driving does the issue act up. I'm also able to make it go away sometimes when I push the clutch to this "critical" point and release it gently.
speed rII - I don't know if I'm quite ready to sell the flywheel yet. I want to hold onto it until I figure out why I'm having this issue. But PM me an offer.
Pac996: the shaft is a snug fit. The problem would be loosness in the trans or bearings.
All 3 mechanics have had assistants underneath the car look for any unusual wobbling of parts and there has been nothing too unusual. They all agree the sound is coming from the bell housing which is why the clutch/flywheel/throwout bearings have been swapped out so many times. However, they have found no other evidence of wear or scratching in or around the bell housing to identify the source of the noise.
Pac996: Here's where I'd start focussing on other than what has been replaced multiple times because either bad parts from factories have been installed multiple times or something else is the actual problem like the already aluded to trans.
The funny thing is that there's no initial noise for 1-7 days following the replacement, and eventually the same noise is back. Pac996: From what I recall new clutches will drag a bit which would be like having the clutch out a little which would be giving a little engagement to the clutch which is when the noise disapperas.This last time, this noise came back as I was driving home with the car. With the exception of the Porsche dealer, I do think that the other 2 mechanics who have worked on this problem are knowledgeable and trustworthy. They simply can't figure it out and will not pretend that they know how to fix the issue.
The noise (and vibration) is also very palpable in the clutch pedal when depressing it to a critical point (approx 1/3 the way down). Once past that point, the noise goes away. Also, the noise is not necessarily present when the car is cold. Only after 5 min or so of driving does the issue act up. I'm also able to make it go away sometimes when I push the clutch to this "critical" point and release it gently.
speed rII - I don't know if I'm quite ready to sell the flywheel yet. I want to hold onto it until I figure out why I'm having this issue. But PM me an offer.
Point taken, Macster. I absolutely agree with you. My comment/decision was one out of desperation and not wanting to drop out the transmission again for something that still seems so uncertain. I will be getting the car over to another experienced set of eyes/ears before doing anything else. I think Tony Callas in SoCal may be a good person to take a look.
Skotch13 - sorry to hear you're having the same problem. I think the sound you hear at low speeds is a type of growl as the engine is at the threshold of lugging. I don't think that's abnormal. I had that looked at as well, thinking it had something to do with the clutch noise I described. Other more experienced people have driven my car and note that it's a normal sound variant at that low speed. Also, if it were the sound of gears grinding you would see some metal fragments in the transmission fluid, which I have never seen in mine.
Skotch13 - sorry to hear you're having the same problem. I think the sound you hear at low speeds is a type of growl as the engine is at the threshold of lugging. I don't think that's abnormal. I had that looked at as well, thinking it had something to do with the clutch noise I described. Other more experienced people have driven my car and note that it's a normal sound variant at that low speed. Also, if it were the sound of gears grinding you would see some metal fragments in the transmission fluid, which I have never seen in mine.
Good luck because you sure aren't geting any lately. Me either but who cares right.
01-05-2012, 03:10 AM
#29
Race Director
One thing for sure is, something making that noise WILL be leaving marks, be it wear marks or leaving shavings around etc. I can see why the clutch assembly would be replaced, I cant see why it would be replaced several times if it never solves the issue. Also, the bellhousing is a part that its easy to resonate to, and the sound may seem like its coming from there, for that reason, not to say it isnt however.
When I have clutch issues I went to extremes... I cut a section out of the bellhousing, making an inspection panel in effect, then I could actually see the issue occurring, put light in, video it all that stuff. Not suggesting it here, but one thing to consider if you are at your wits end. It bet pulling it in and out a dozen times for sure...
When I have clutch issues I went to extremes... I cut a section out of the bellhousing, making an inspection panel in effect, then I could actually see the issue occurring, put light in, video it all that stuff. Not suggesting it here, but one thing to consider if you are at your wits end. It bet pulling it in and out a dozen times for sure...
01-05-2012, 04:04 AM
#30
Race Director
Could the release lever be involved somehow. Maybe bent?
Do you only hear it at idle or is it present at other RPMs. I would guess so.
It might be worth bleeding and then if no success perhaps replacing the slave cylinder, maybe it isn't fully retracting when you release the clutch?
Not sure of your MY but you can get a new slave cylinder for about $110 + shipping.
And then bleeding is fairly straight forward, there is a DIY on renntech and pedrosgarage on bleeding brakes an slave cylinder.
Do you only hear it at idle or is it present at other RPMs. I would guess so.
It might be worth bleeding and then if no success perhaps replacing the slave cylinder, maybe it isn't fully retracting when you release the clutch?
Not sure of your MY but you can get a new slave cylinder for about $110 + shipping.
And then bleeding is fairly straight forward, there is a DIY on renntech and pedrosgarage on bleeding brakes an slave cylinder.