autocross, de, or both
04-21-2011, 10:28 PM
#1
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autocross, de, or both
just joined pca. autocross and de events look like fun. so one over the other? do both? which one first? my thoughts never having attended either. autocross - slower, lots of runoff room, only a few runs. de - instructor, race track - good but way less run off room, a couple hours of driving. Both sound good do me. any thoughts?
04-21-2011, 10:46 PM
#3
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DE's are a blast but at much faster speeds than what you may be used to. I started with Autox. Never out of 2nd gear while letting you feel how the car reacts plus alot more forgiving opposed to agricultural excursions at high speeds. Not saying you should go that path but it worked for me. If you do a DE first treat it with open ears and eyes with the ego left at the door. Either way you will have a great time.
04-22-2011, 08:57 AM
#4
DE can be a bit intimidating the first time, but honestly I can't imagine going back to AutoX after DE. I tried my first autoX last year after a couple years worth of DE's and I just didn't get it. You wait in line a lot to drive a tiny amount. Just not for me...
-Shawn
-Shawn
04-22-2011, 09:34 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
I still enjoy both DE and Autox. And I even Club Race.
IMHO, autox is an excellent platform for learning car control, and learning to become connected with your car. Even though runs are short (usually around 60 seconds), and few runs total (3-6 typically), the experience is both intense and safe. Braking and cornering transitions are fast paced, and really teach you to feel the limits of the car and to learn to work with it. Hand and foot speed learns well at autox'ing. Autox'ing also teaches you to look and think ahead, to plan your line thru the coned gates, which is an invaluable skill at the track. But as mentioned, autox'ing rarely gets out of 2nd gear, and courses are usually designed with safe distances from poles, curbs, etc. I know a lot of people who transitioned from autox to track driving, and are now some of the better track drivers.
But also remember that autox'ing is a true sport. You run against the clock, competing against cars similar to yours. The reason for few runs is to teach you to learn the course and put down fast runs in a short timeframe. DE is not meant to be competitive. As you progress, you'll probably start monitoring lap times to gauge improvement. But learning the limits and feel of a car on the track at 100mph are arguably much riskier than at 40mph on an autox course. If you're a competitive spirit, you'll enjoy autox'ing.
I can almost guarantee, that if 2 auto enthusiasts start at events at the same time, do a similar number of events, but one spends the first year also doing autox's, at the end of year 2, the autox'er will be the better driver.
IMHO, autox is an excellent platform for learning car control, and learning to become connected with your car. Even though runs are short (usually around 60 seconds), and few runs total (3-6 typically), the experience is both intense and safe. Braking and cornering transitions are fast paced, and really teach you to feel the limits of the car and to learn to work with it. Hand and foot speed learns well at autox'ing. Autox'ing also teaches you to look and think ahead, to plan your line thru the coned gates, which is an invaluable skill at the track. But as mentioned, autox'ing rarely gets out of 2nd gear, and courses are usually designed with safe distances from poles, curbs, etc. I know a lot of people who transitioned from autox to track driving, and are now some of the better track drivers.
But also remember that autox'ing is a true sport. You run against the clock, competing against cars similar to yours. The reason for few runs is to teach you to learn the course and put down fast runs in a short timeframe. DE is not meant to be competitive. As you progress, you'll probably start monitoring lap times to gauge improvement. But learning the limits and feel of a car on the track at 100mph are arguably much riskier than at 40mph on an autox course. If you're a competitive spirit, you'll enjoy autox'ing.
I can almost guarantee, that if 2 auto enthusiasts start at events at the same time, do a similar number of events, but one spends the first year also doing autox's, at the end of year 2, the autox'er will be the better driver.
04-22-2011, 02:01 PM
#7
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Time and money not being an issue: do both. Don't forget all the social events and fun drives also. There's also club racing and hillclimbs (with a lot more risk to you and your car).
Some people love both, some people find one or both not to their taste. Both will teach you a lot about your car. There's some overlap, but also each has a lot of unique things that the other doesn't do. If you search you should be able to find at least a day's worth of reading on people's comparisons.
I definitely recommend you at least try autocross, especially if there is something like a test and tune day. It's a 4-12 hour commitment, should be available with very little travel, you don't have to be terribly concerned about your car's shape, any risk to you and your car is miniscule. Let people know you're new and see if you can get ride-alongs in other cars when you have time. Most car enthusiasts I know have a huge grin within 2 seconds of the start that doesn't end for the whole run. A lot of people at HPDE's will tell you all about how they hate autocross. Their main objections seem to be (1) time spent standing around vs. driving (comes with working the course yourself instead of paying $200 for someone else to do it), and (2) only having met new or bad autocrossers that furiously saw at the wheel, and hence they fundamentally misunderstand how it's supposed to be done.
Some random thoughts, from someone who is not an expert in either. I've done some HPDEs, lots of autocross, a few hillclimbs, a tiny bit of karting, not a bit of wheel to wheel. All HPDE's are not equal, your experiences may vary.
HPDE: More expensive in general. Some risk to your car (this depends a lot on what group you're with and your attitude). Lots of seat time, though also a lot of it going straight. Not competitive. Often with an instructor giving you feedback the whole time (value of this varies based on instructor, you, and the attitude each of you comes in with). Teaches you to look ahead, especially past the car(s) in front of you. Smooth inputs. Much faster speeds in general, and no matter how much autocrossing you've done, cornering at 30mph and 90+ affect you differently. You drive the same course repeatedly, working on each section over and over. In HPDE's you typically drive at 6-9/10ths. Incidents such as spinning or going off track are Bad. You slowly approach the limits.
Autocross: If you're just doing it for fun, it's really cheap. It can get expensive if you end up very competitive. There's almost no risk to your car or you. Comparatively little seat time, however this varies with region (3 vs. 8 runs a day, or test-and-tune or Evo school with 20-50 runs). However, a single 40-60 second run will be filled with more car inputs than lots of laps around a track. There's a lot of mental work involved in seeing a brand new course and figuring out how you're going to drive it quickly and smoothly. If you do it right, you will look way ahead. Just like at the track, you need to be smooth and have an awareness of the car's weight balance and momentum, but you don't have time to sit around and think about it because that sharp left is coming up now! You can usually find people to sit in your car and help you out (just make sure they actually know what they're talking about), or pay for an Evo school, where the drivers are national experts. Given the small number of runs and the whole setup, you can go 10/10ths if you want -- spinning and hitting cones just means you tried a little too hard -- but now you know a little better where that limit is and what your car does when it crosses it. It's a competition, where driver skill matters a lot, and you can see your results improve as you put more time and effort into it.
Personally I like both. I wish every driver I share the streets with went to at least one of each. I think HPDE events help for every day street / highway driving -- especially looking ahead and awareness of what other cars are doing. Autocross makes people more aware of the limits of their car, how the car reacts at the limits, and would be really helpful anytime things start going pear shaped.
Some people love both, some people find one or both not to their taste. Both will teach you a lot about your car. There's some overlap, but also each has a lot of unique things that the other doesn't do. If you search you should be able to find at least a day's worth of reading on people's comparisons.
I definitely recommend you at least try autocross, especially if there is something like a test and tune day. It's a 4-12 hour commitment, should be available with very little travel, you don't have to be terribly concerned about your car's shape, any risk to you and your car is miniscule. Let people know you're new and see if you can get ride-alongs in other cars when you have time. Most car enthusiasts I know have a huge grin within 2 seconds of the start that doesn't end for the whole run. A lot of people at HPDE's will tell you all about how they hate autocross. Their main objections seem to be (1) time spent standing around vs. driving (comes with working the course yourself instead of paying $200 for someone else to do it), and (2) only having met new or bad autocrossers that furiously saw at the wheel, and hence they fundamentally misunderstand how it's supposed to be done.
Some random thoughts, from someone who is not an expert in either. I've done some HPDEs, lots of autocross, a few hillclimbs, a tiny bit of karting, not a bit of wheel to wheel. All HPDE's are not equal, your experiences may vary.
HPDE: More expensive in general. Some risk to your car (this depends a lot on what group you're with and your attitude). Lots of seat time, though also a lot of it going straight. Not competitive. Often with an instructor giving you feedback the whole time (value of this varies based on instructor, you, and the attitude each of you comes in with). Teaches you to look ahead, especially past the car(s) in front of you. Smooth inputs. Much faster speeds in general, and no matter how much autocrossing you've done, cornering at 30mph and 90+ affect you differently. You drive the same course repeatedly, working on each section over and over. In HPDE's you typically drive at 6-9/10ths. Incidents such as spinning or going off track are Bad. You slowly approach the limits.
Autocross: If you're just doing it for fun, it's really cheap. It can get expensive if you end up very competitive. There's almost no risk to your car or you. Comparatively little seat time, however this varies with region (3 vs. 8 runs a day, or test-and-tune or Evo school with 20-50 runs). However, a single 40-60 second run will be filled with more car inputs than lots of laps around a track. There's a lot of mental work involved in seeing a brand new course and figuring out how you're going to drive it quickly and smoothly. If you do it right, you will look way ahead. Just like at the track, you need to be smooth and have an awareness of the car's weight balance and momentum, but you don't have time to sit around and think about it because that sharp left is coming up now! You can usually find people to sit in your car and help you out (just make sure they actually know what they're talking about), or pay for an Evo school, where the drivers are national experts. Given the small number of runs and the whole setup, you can go 10/10ths if you want -- spinning and hitting cones just means you tried a little too hard -- but now you know a little better where that limit is and what your car does when it crosses it. It's a competition, where driver skill matters a lot, and you can see your results improve as you put more time and effort into it.
Personally I like both. I wish every driver I share the streets with went to at least one of each. I think HPDE events help for every day street / highway driving -- especially looking ahead and awareness of what other cars are doing. Autocross makes people more aware of the limits of their car, how the car reacts at the limits, and would be really helpful anytime things start going pear shaped.
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04-23-2011, 11:27 AM
#9
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DE! There is nothing like the thrill of the track, and even though it is not a competition, when you get a point-by, there is a HUGE sense of satisfaction, you know that you are doing something right.....at least for that moment.
04-23-2011, 12:37 PM
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I guess I went the other way. Started DE, then went to auto-x. As others have stated, both are extremely fun. DE's, though faster, are slower-paced. You have vastly more time to think & react. With a DE, you aim for surgical precision in your line, with an autocross, you blast through the course, relying more on instinct. Though both are high performance activities, the skillset is very different. So, definitely do both! The only problem with auto-x is the limited run time. If you can get 5-6 runs though, it's worth it. 2-3, maybe, but that's just not enough for me!
