996 Instrument Cluster Failure - Third Time
08-21-2010, 07:59 PM
#16
Instructor
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Macon, GA
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At this point, I'd be very tempted to take the car to the dealer, bite the bullet for a new cluster from said dealer and have them fix the car. If it fails as quickly as the used clusters did, the responsibility for fixing it should then fall on the dealer.
08-21-2010, 08:15 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
In his original post he states that he acquired the clusters from dismantlers and had the dealer install them. I have not used a Porsche dealer for repairs yet, but in my experience most franchised dealers offer warranties on parts and labor purchased through them.
At this point, I'd be very tempted to take the car to the dealer, bite the bullet for a new cluster from said dealer and have them fix the car. If it fails as quickly as the used clusters did, the responsibility for fixing it should then fall on the dealer.
At this point, I'd be very tempted to take the car to the dealer, bite the bullet for a new cluster from said dealer and have them fix the car. If it fails as quickly as the used clusters did, the responsibility for fixing it should then fall on the dealer.
Failing that, you could always trade in the car on another one
08-21-2010, 09:42 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
this one is going to SUCK.
-What else has been fixed right before they started to fail?
-If you can tell what is fried exactly.. You may be able to track down where to start to look (I am a electronic engineer, I would be willing to look at one if you want to send it)
-Any idea when it fries? Just driving? Hitting a bump, you get in it,, turn the key and zilch...
-Are you 100% sure the old ones are in fact dead and the short is simple causing it to fail but not really ruining the cluster?
Many Many people end up trading in cars with electrical issues.. Best of luck.. and I mean that.
Pm me if you want to take me up on my offer.
-What else has been fixed right before they started to fail?
-If you can tell what is fried exactly.. You may be able to track down where to start to look (I am a electronic engineer, I would be willing to look at one if you want to send it)
-Any idea when it fries? Just driving? Hitting a bump, you get in it,, turn the key and zilch...
-Are you 100% sure the old ones are in fact dead and the short is simple causing it to fail but not really ruining the cluster?
Many Many people end up trading in cars with electrical issues.. Best of luck.. and I mean that.
Pm me if you want to take me up on my offer.
08-21-2010, 10:58 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Can you rent time on a shock-dyno "shaker rig"?
I agree with the others - this "bump" factor is too coincidental to be overlooked. And, it might not be a short behind the dash, but somewhere else on the car that eventually leads to the dash wiring.
If Kyle can figure out which part of the instrument cluster blew, that might help you figure out where to look on the car. And, as he suggests, some other recent work might have caused the problem. Let's say some suspension work was done and a wheel speed sensor wire got damaged (which leads to the dash for the MPH)... maybe something like that is causing it.
I agree with the others - this "bump" factor is too coincidental to be overlooked. And, it might not be a short behind the dash, but somewhere else on the car that eventually leads to the dash wiring.
If Kyle can figure out which part of the instrument cluster blew, that might help you figure out where to look on the car. And, as he suggests, some other recent work might have caused the problem. Let's say some suspension work was done and a wheel speed sensor wire got damaged (which leads to the dash for the MPH)... maybe something like that is causing it.
08-22-2010, 12:02 AM
#20
as mentioned, maybe there is nothing wrong with the prev instrument cluster.... one way to tell is to mount it on a second car.... sometimes all it takes is one bad wire to pull down a whole circuit board... but it doesnt necesarilly mean that the board is bad. It just doesnt work with your wiring because of external problem....
08-22-2010, 07:53 AM
#21
Not certain if the shop manual has the electrical read outs for the car but if there is such data a laborish testing would help. Have you ever tried a durametric? Seems a problem might show some place. I'd also check your plugs and sockets for being secured plus the state the pins are in like if they are recessed too much or possibly extending too much giving rise to a short. Might just check the ECU modules connection.
08-22-2010, 10:35 PM
#22
Cruisin'
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2002 Cluster light out
How about one light (bulb?) out for the alternator gauge. The needle lights up, but backgroud is dark. My independent tech had the cluster out, but couldn't find a bulb or any other visible issues. THere have been no other problems with the cluster. Even the dealer couldn't find any replacement bulb in the catalogue/system. Any ideas? Thanks, Mike
08-22-2010, 11:04 PM
#23
Race Director
As a second update on my ongoing saga of three instrument cluster failures in less than two months, my problems still exist with no solution in sight.
I took the car to the Porsche dealer, (Rector Burlingame), who installed and programmed the previous two replacement clusters. They were unable to determine the root cause of the problem.
I then took the car to a reputable auto electric shop, whereupon they spent approximately 12 hours utilizing their extensive experience and Porsche diagnostic equipment to diagnose the root cause of the cluster failure, ($1,500 out of pocket). Unfortunately, after an invasive investigation, (dash removal, tracing wiring, sensors, fuse block analysis, etc.), they were unable to identify any issues, (alternator, wiring, fuse block, harness, charging system, battery, cluster connectors, etc.), which would cause repeated failures.
I then took my car to my independent shop to see if they could attempt to sort out the issue. Apart from the cluster itself no other fault codes are present. They also contacted two other Porsche dealer service managers, (apart from the one I initially took the car), explaining the issues and as expected, they too have never had any other Porsche of any model experience similar recurring malfunctions.
I subsequently wrote to Porsche North America for a second time replaying the history of the issue, which includes nearly $5,000 spent to date and the Porsche dealer, independent auto electric shop and independent Porsche mechanic unable to diagnose the problem.
I stressed it hard to believe my car alone among thousands of late model 993/996/997/Boxters is the only one experiencing similar multiple instrument cluster failures, requesting the issue be referred beyond customer service to their technical department to research their database to determine if similar incidents have been reported and how the issue was remedied.
Their response was to inform me that the car was no longer under warranty and therefore they bear no financial responsibility to remedy the problem and that I should take the car to my local Porshce dealer.
Most irritating, I was not asking them to assume any financial responsibility, but only to help in its diagnosis and identifying a solution to this problem.
So, it appears I am resigned to driving the car sans any gauges as I am loathe to purchase and install another instrument cluster as the likelihood of failure is high.
Has anyone had any luck in the past getting Porshce to assist in determining a problem their dealers have been unable to resolve?
Your feedback would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Chris Stocker
I took the car to the Porsche dealer, (Rector Burlingame), who installed and programmed the previous two replacement clusters. They were unable to determine the root cause of the problem.
I then took the car to a reputable auto electric shop, whereupon they spent approximately 12 hours utilizing their extensive experience and Porsche diagnostic equipment to diagnose the root cause of the cluster failure, ($1,500 out of pocket). Unfortunately, after an invasive investigation, (dash removal, tracing wiring, sensors, fuse block analysis, etc.), they were unable to identify any issues, (alternator, wiring, fuse block, harness, charging system, battery, cluster connectors, etc.), which would cause repeated failures.
I then took my car to my independent shop to see if they could attempt to sort out the issue. Apart from the cluster itself no other fault codes are present. They also contacted two other Porsche dealer service managers, (apart from the one I initially took the car), explaining the issues and as expected, they too have never had any other Porsche of any model experience similar recurring malfunctions.
I subsequently wrote to Porsche North America for a second time replaying the history of the issue, which includes nearly $5,000 spent to date and the Porsche dealer, independent auto electric shop and independent Porsche mechanic unable to diagnose the problem.
I stressed it hard to believe my car alone among thousands of late model 993/996/997/Boxters is the only one experiencing similar multiple instrument cluster failures, requesting the issue be referred beyond customer service to their technical department to research their database to determine if similar incidents have been reported and how the issue was remedied.
Their response was to inform me that the car was no longer under warranty and therefore they bear no financial responsibility to remedy the problem and that I should take the car to my local Porshce dealer.
Most irritating, I was not asking them to assume any financial responsibility, but only to help in its diagnosis and identifying a solution to this problem.
So, it appears I am resigned to driving the car sans any gauges as I am loathe to purchase and install another instrument cluster as the likelihood of failure is high.
Has anyone had any luck in the past getting Porshce to assist in determining a problem their dealers have been unable to resolve?
Your feedback would be appreciated.
Thank you.
Chris Stocker
Man oh man. Let me think about this...
Wiring problems are very difficult to trouble shoot. Part of the problem is some automotive techs think more like mechanics -- understandably -- than electricians. Automotive electrics particularly tricky cause so much of the wiring is buried in the car. I've seen Cayennes gutted of their interior down to sheet metal by techs looking for a bad wiring harness.
I think it is going to come down to you sitting in the car testing each wire of the instrument cluster for continuity and shorts/grounds.
While I offered the idea the problem was a bare wire, or one caught under a bolt head or pinched between some metal it might be a wire inside the harness broken and upon a sharp bump jabbing into another wire through the insulation.
For a new car the solution would be to replace the harness and send the old one back to the factory.
In your car's case a new harness -- and which one? -- is expensive. It could cost in parts and labor what you've already spent.
I can't help but think there's some shop somebody out there who's encountered this though. Trouble is finding him.
Sorry not of more help. I'll think some more on this and ask around and see what I can learn.
More when I know more.
Sincerely,
Macster.
08-22-2010, 11:34 PM
#24
Race Director
this one is going to SUCK.
-What else has been fixed right before they started to fail?
-If you can tell what is fried exactly.. You may be able to track down where to start to look (I am a electronic engineer, I would be willing to look at one if you want to send it)
-Any idea when it fries? Just driving? Hitting a bump, you get in it,, turn the key and zilch...
-Are you 100% sure the old ones are in fact dead and the short is simple causing it to fail but not really ruining the cluster?
Many Many people end up trading in cars with electrical issues.. Best of luck.. and I mean that.
Pm me if you want to take me up on my offer.
-What else has been fixed right before they started to fail?
-If you can tell what is fried exactly.. You may be able to track down where to start to look (I am a electronic engineer, I would be willing to look at one if you want to send it)
-Any idea when it fries? Just driving? Hitting a bump, you get in it,, turn the key and zilch...
-Are you 100% sure the old ones are in fact dead and the short is simple causing it to fail but not really ruining the cluster?
Many Many people end up trading in cars with electrical issues.. Best of luck.. and I mean that.
Pm me if you want to take me up on my offer.
A postmortum on the cluster might very well pinpoint the wire or circuit that is causing the problem.
That no fuses have blown suggests -- I write software/firmware for a living and don't know electronics/electrics like an electronics engineer -- the spike, if it is that, is coming in via a ground line.
Sincerely,
Macster.
08-23-2010, 12:48 PM
#25
Cruisin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you for your continuing input!
Greetings Again:
I greatly appreciate all the feedback received in the past day regarding my ongoing woes to remedy the instrument cluster failures. In particular, the kind offer to analyze the failed cluster.
I have decided to bite the bullet and bring the car back to the dealer along with the three fried clusters.
In addition, I will hand over to them all your suggestions, the thirty pages from the 996 Workshop manual on instrument cluster diagnosis, reports and receipts from my ongoing efforts to repair the problem and copies of correspondence to/from Porshce Cars North America.
My hope is that with some forceful, but respectful cajoling, they will escalate the issue with Porsche Cars North America to identify other instances of repeated failures. And, if necessary they will be authorized to conduct other diagnostic tests, which have not already been conducted.
Failing this strategy, in lieu of installing another cluster, I will leave the car by the river near our ranch and wait for the car to disappear and be rid of it.
Best wishes,
Chris Stocker
I greatly appreciate all the feedback received in the past day regarding my ongoing woes to remedy the instrument cluster failures. In particular, the kind offer to analyze the failed cluster.
I have decided to bite the bullet and bring the car back to the dealer along with the three fried clusters.
In addition, I will hand over to them all your suggestions, the thirty pages from the 996 Workshop manual on instrument cluster diagnosis, reports and receipts from my ongoing efforts to repair the problem and copies of correspondence to/from Porshce Cars North America.
My hope is that with some forceful, but respectful cajoling, they will escalate the issue with Porsche Cars North America to identify other instances of repeated failures. And, if necessary they will be authorized to conduct other diagnostic tests, which have not already been conducted.
Failing this strategy, in lieu of installing another cluster, I will leave the car by the river near our ranch and wait for the car to disappear and be rid of it.
Best wishes,
Chris Stocker
09-02-2010, 10:15 PM
#26
Cruisin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Update on Instrument Cluster Issue
Greetings Again:
My car has now been at the dealer for the past two days as they seek to determine the cause of the instrument cluster failure. They have already burned through the $500 diagnostic estimate and will let me know tomorrow how much more I will need to spend solely on diagnostics.
As far as their findings, the service rep indicated:
* They believe the root cause of the problem is a fuel sending unit, which apparently sits in the gas tank. Over time the plastic covering the wires can disintegrate exposing the bare wire to the fuel, (boy this is certainly a wonderful engineering mistake as if I am not mistaken this is what caused the TWA 747 to blow up).
* They plan to conduct some additional investigations, but so far have not come up with any other issues.
Now for their initial recommended repairs, which are:
* Install new fuel sending unit.
* Install new alternator;
* Install new instrument cluster; and,
* Road test car for 300 miles to see if new cluster fails.
If it fails again, he indicated they would provide a no-cost replacement cluster, but would need to charge for additional diagnostics.
When I asked about the cost, he could not give me an estimate yet, but noted it will likely be quite expensive due to the cost of replacement parts, labor for installation/programming and the time required for road testing. I suspect it will be northward of $5,000.
My initial thoughts are to say thank you for your efforts to diagnose the issue and have my independent install the fuel sending unit, either skip the alternator or have the current one rebuilt and purchase another cluster from the dismantler. I believe this would be far less expensive than their recommendations.
If the cluster fails again, the car gets left with the keys in it by the river near our ranch.
Any comments or thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Chris Stocker
My car has now been at the dealer for the past two days as they seek to determine the cause of the instrument cluster failure. They have already burned through the $500 diagnostic estimate and will let me know tomorrow how much more I will need to spend solely on diagnostics.
As far as their findings, the service rep indicated:
* They believe the root cause of the problem is a fuel sending unit, which apparently sits in the gas tank. Over time the plastic covering the wires can disintegrate exposing the bare wire to the fuel, (boy this is certainly a wonderful engineering mistake as if I am not mistaken this is what caused the TWA 747 to blow up).
* They plan to conduct some additional investigations, but so far have not come up with any other issues.
Now for their initial recommended repairs, which are:
* Install new fuel sending unit.
* Install new alternator;
* Install new instrument cluster; and,
* Road test car for 300 miles to see if new cluster fails.
If it fails again, he indicated they would provide a no-cost replacement cluster, but would need to charge for additional diagnostics.
When I asked about the cost, he could not give me an estimate yet, but noted it will likely be quite expensive due to the cost of replacement parts, labor for installation/programming and the time required for road testing. I suspect it will be northward of $5,000.
My initial thoughts are to say thank you for your efforts to diagnose the issue and have my independent install the fuel sending unit, either skip the alternator or have the current one rebuilt and purchase another cluster from the dismantler. I believe this would be far less expensive than their recommendations.
If the cluster fails again, the car gets left with the keys in it by the river near our ranch.
Any comments or thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Chris Stocker
09-02-2010, 10:19 PM
#27
Super Moderator
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Northern New Jersey
Posts: 16,142
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes
on
19 Posts
Chris, I think your plan is sound.
The dealer is guessing, they have no clue. I'd start with just the sender.
Just my humble opinion.
The dealer is guessing, they have no clue. I'd start with just the sender.
Just my humble opinion.
09-03-2010, 03:47 PM
#28
Sorry to hear your saga. This is a tough one for sure. Any work done right before the very first failure?
There are repair shops specilizing in intrument clusters repair/rebuild if you google. If you send them the units to look at, they may be able to narrow down the cause and give you other useful info.
There are repair shops specilizing in intrument clusters repair/rebuild if you google. If you send them the units to look at, they may be able to narrow down the cause and give you other useful info.
09-03-2010, 04:58 PM
#29
Helo Driver
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Based on the fact that the last failures happened due to vibration, I doubt it's the fuel sending unit giving you grief as the failure would duplicate itself much sooner.
Failure most likely caused by improper seated wire/exposed wire causing the cluster to ground out.
Remove the cluster and hook up a meter and try to duplicate scenario. You may end up driving over railroad tracks for a day, but hopefuly should be able to isolate the wire causing you grief.
good luck
Failure most likely caused by improper seated wire/exposed wire causing the cluster to ground out.
Remove the cluster and hook up a meter and try to duplicate scenario. You may end up driving over railroad tracks for a day, but hopefuly should be able to isolate the wire causing you grief.
good luck
09-03-2010, 05:53 PM
#30
One more idea if you are trying to diagnose it by yourself.
1) Send one of the better clusters to a specialist to get it repaired and ask them what's the most likely cause ~$500, I think.
2) From the circuit diagram (of a '99), there are only three plugs going into the cluster (blue, white, and black). The black is the power supply (and other things) so you need to connect that one at least to power the cluster. WIth teh new repaired cluster, you can leave the white and blue disconnected and drive for a couple of weeks and see if problem reappears. If it does, at least you reduce the problem to one third. If problem does not reappear, get the blue or white connected and drive for another few wks and so on until the problem reappears. Hopefully you can narrow down your problem to one third at the end.
Combined with what the cluster specialist tells you, hopefully you can narrow it down even further. Also, you may want to tell the specialist the situation and maybe he will cut you a good deal if you need another repair.
BTW, I also don't buy the fuel sender theory since from the diagram, the cluster should be able to take the full 12v from the sender even if it's shorted to 12V. That alone should not fry the cluster.
1) Send one of the better clusters to a specialist to get it repaired and ask them what's the most likely cause ~$500, I think.
2) From the circuit diagram (of a '99), there are only three plugs going into the cluster (blue, white, and black). The black is the power supply (and other things) so you need to connect that one at least to power the cluster. WIth teh new repaired cluster, you can leave the white and blue disconnected and drive for a couple of weeks and see if problem reappears. If it does, at least you reduce the problem to one third. If problem does not reappear, get the blue or white connected and drive for another few wks and so on until the problem reappears. Hopefully you can narrow down your problem to one third at the end.
Combined with what the cluster specialist tells you, hopefully you can narrow it down even further. Also, you may want to tell the specialist the situation and maybe he will cut you a good deal if you need another repair.
BTW, I also don't buy the fuel sender theory since from the diagram, the cluster should be able to take the full 12v from the sender even if it's shorted to 12V. That alone should not fry the cluster.