ivangene

actually there is a study somewhere that shows them making of the Prius actually damages the enviornment more than the car will save over its life span

gee... no kidding!

and 50 mpg.... yea, OK in 1985 I drove a Dodge Colt that got 45mpg in the city and 55 hwy....25 years ago people!! this is nothing hard to do, its just the focus is all wrong....

where is my soap box

Van

You've come a long way Ed!!

Pac996

No kidding. I think about the BS everyone puts out too because in 74 the dodge colt marketed in australia was giving me the same mileage and I wasn't much into light footing it. The little hemi engine was great. And then we get the big sale of buy the new and improved green garbage.

Manufacturers could put the old style engines in and be better for the enviroment. It's the old petroleum industry taking its cut of the american market pie like usual. Funny how what ever the market will bear doesn't sound like take every last penny the public has if possible.

The car concerned in this thread I have seen as a traffic hazard way too many times with the way they move so slow. Not mentioning how onramps get plugged by the drivers or the hwy traffic getting a thrill when the nut pull out going too slow.

dresler

Ed, nut up and put your colt in your sig!

Wellardmac

Well, yes and no. What you said is part of it, but you have to remember that cars have gotten heavier because of all the junk they're put in them, plus they now tune them for performance rather than economy.

I also find it sad that my wife's '95 Civic gets better gas mileage than a modern Civic and most other cars on the road... when they were running Cash for Clunckers my 911 was classified as a clunker, but her Civic was not.

Wellardmac

Yup, I saw that study. Pretty sad. That helped convince me that people that buy those pieces of junk are more about making a statement than actually making a difference to the environment. Misguided, misinformed, and pretentious.

Master Deep

Yep electric cars have become a fashion statement. Just look at hollywood.

I just hoped we are not all forced into getting hyrids or electric cars in the future. At least bring diesels over if I can't have a gasoline engine.

Wellardmac

I'd take a diesel any day. I've been pissed off that we can't get European diesels over here - they have great cars and the US just doesn't sell them.

BruceP

I wrote about it awhile back. The data is very straightforward, and for that reason incredibly compelling. It's based on lifetime fuel cost, including the cost of manufacture and disposal. Using that math, the first Prius consumed twice as much of the world's resources as a Hummer H2, believe it or not. They use less fuel once they're in the driveway, but they rape the planet to get there.

The principle determinant in that math is actually service life (after that, in the case of the Prius, it's the brutal fuel cost of mining and shipping nickel etc. for the batteries). So, consider your Porsche: 70% of the Porsches ever built are still in service, so that's a few hundred thousand cars that didn't need to get built to replace them. They're also built in the most strict manufacturing economy in the world for environmental laws, so there's no solvent based paint used, and in the home market more than 80% of the car has to be recylable, and marked and assembled with reclamation in mind at the end of its service life.

If society could look at the issue with any common sense, a guy who drives an immaculately maintained ten-year-old Porsche is actually about as green as it gets, assuming responsible use. I'm not trying to be funny, either. We won't save the planet by buying more stuff. We'll do it by figuring out how not to.

Van

Agree 100%!!

And, if you really try, these 10 year old cars can yield high MPG, too.

I drove like a granny on a 160 mile trip - just to see how high I could get (Tim, pardon the green sundial...).

Wellardmac

+1

Most people don't get it when I say that I'm happy to keep my 10 year old Porsche rather than trade it in for a newer model that really won't give me much more in terms of features and performance.

tooloud10

The data is far from being straightforward and any number of studies have debunked the "Prius vs. Hummer" lifecycle myth.

Sure, not making new things is the "greenest" way, but it's not very realistic for a planet full of people that desire new things.

Personally, I've never understood why so many people seem to think the only reason anyone buys a Prius is to project a green image. It completely ignores the usefulness and utility provided by a $20k car that's got the space of a Camry inside and gets 50 mpg.

BruceP

I have seen articles arguing with it, but not debunking it. Most disagreement surrounds the validity of including manufacturing related fuel use, not the math itself. I'm extremely familiar with the material because I'm citing it in my next book.

The business of 'desiring new things' is how I've made my living over the last 30 years. I'm well aware of the dynamic. My personal belief is that our best hope is to figure out how to make that habit sustainable, since stopping isn't realistic and neither is continuing without making any changes. Your point is kind of an unproductive discussion-killer. My own belief is that if everybody bought the best they could afford and just did it less often, and then took care of it so that it lasted, the world would be better off and capitalism would still prosper. Exhibit A is Germany, which until 2009 was the biggest manufacturing economy in the world until China finally overtook it. The capitalist system can very easily and profitably support a more discriminating style of consumerism, and has done so in the past.

I don't dispute the charms of the Prius, but I'm very confident that the same benefits can be achieved in ways that don't involve the the sacrifices that car asks us to make.

ArneeA

I wonder what kind of oil these Priuses (Priuii?) use?
Does Toyota recommend a different weight to prevent the accelerator from sticking?

gota911

.... or maybe those Prius owners installed an aftermarket CAI, which caused too much air to be forced into the engine, which forced the throttle to run wide open!