violinfather

I am about to join the P-car club. I have my mind set on a 2002 C2 which has 15K on it. The car is in absolute pristine condition. All service has been done. The only issue is and it may be a big one is that it does not have PSM. I live in Southern Ontario and plan on driving this car year round. I will not drive it on really heavy snow days but will drive it in winter. I also found a 2004 Anniversary Edition Boxster S which is also in great shape and does have PSM. Any opinions would be appreciated. I have searched the forum and ready many opinions already however would like some current ones.

Thanks,

Mark

redridge

here is a video with PSM on and then off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC3B4rPOmWg

Dennis C

If you hold out for a Carrera 4, you'll get AWD and PSM. That might be the way to go.

Ray S

I have one Porsche w/PSM (my 996) and one without (my 986).

Honestly, the 996 is not a handful IMHO without PSM. Even in the snow (with snow tires or course) the car is totally safe to drive without the electronic nanny.

I guess having grown up learning to drive on cars without ABS, traction control, PSM, etc. I'm surprised at how nervous some are to own or drive cars without these systems now.

Finally, I'd say the 996 C2 is a superior snow car to a 986S. First, with more weight over the rear wheels snow traction in the C2 is slightly better. Second, if you do start to spin, the 996 is a little easier to catch. This is not to say it's easy to spin a 986, rather once it starts to spin it is a little harder to recover due to its lower polar moment.

RallyJon

It's interesting to read different people's perspective on th relative stabilty of Porsche's rear-engined cars.

Starting with my '71, I could get lurid oversteer at will. What fun for a weekend car.

Then with my 993 C4. AWD or not, I could still toss it off the road backwards with a small amount of exertion on my commute to work, at far from unreasonable speeds. Learned the car, learned where I could and couldn't push, and worked around it.

Now with the 996 C4S. Still learning the car. Haven't turned off PSM yet, but that light does seem to flicker quite a bit at low speeds on back roads. Just a hunch, but I bet it has the same limit behavior as 34 years of 911s (and now the rear-engined GT cars built by the company that used to build 911s *cough*). Maybe the 295 rear tires will mean it happens at higher speeds than with 185 rear tires?

savannah996

i have mk1 996c2 w/o psm. ive only put like 500 miles on it. and comming from a awd car, a driver has to adapt. (im still learning). my audi TT would under steer (and that isnt good either). my 966 can have some lift off oversteer, but not too bad. i have noticed noobs will lift off and turn harder when going in a corner HOT, and when you combine these actions------well--- i think some of know. lol.
my recommendation is to learn the cars (and tires) limits gradually!!!

jasper

I had a 996 without PSM and now I have a 996 with PSM. Both were 2002 models.

I much preferred the car without PSM. I took it to the track and it behaved impeccably. I autocrossed my new 996 with the PSM on and it was a nightmare. Once I turned the b*tch off it was fine.

I never once felt at risk in the old 996, it handled just as I would expect a mature rear engined Porsche should. In the new 996 I took a nice tight bend at speed recently, and just when I felt the car might step out a bit ( I was looking forward to the catch) PSM stepped in and shut down the fun right now. Totally ruined it for me. I'm turning the PSM off nowadays quite a bit.

Seriously - if you are going to rely on PSM to keep you out of trouble you either can't drive that well, or you're *way* over driving for the conditions.

10 GT3

I own an 02' without PSM and if you want to get the most out of these cars PSM is not going to help you. PSM does have a purpose. It is to provide a safety margin for less skilled drivers by helping to keep the car within the limits of traction. A 996 is a very stable car to begin with. You can actually come into corners off throtte without fear of spinning. If you really want to push it to get the best lap times (brake less, turn in early and slide through the apex and using throttle to steer) then PSM will not allow you to do this. Advance level drivers we even tell to take PSM off when they go on the track. You need to control the car and not have the computer hold it back from you. Also AWD is certainly not needed for these cars and slows you down due to the extra weight. Walter Rohrl ran 7 seconds faster in a C2 over a C4 at the Nurburgring.

jasper

since we're posting videos....I'm pretty sure this guy didn't have PSM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzIXLS06utY

himself

Are you going to track the car? Or just daily drive it?

My old 996 did not have PSM, was not hard to drive, and was faster than equivalent PSM equipped cars. IMO, PSM is a beginner's tool (i.e., crutch) and definitely not faster on a road course. But PSM IS safer on the street (especially in the rain).

In any event, I don't think it should be a deal breaker for a 996 purchase. Well it wouldn't for me anyway - I like cars without it

-td

violinfather

This will be a daily driver for me and I don't imagine that it will ever see the track. I am also considering driving it in winter however I may just buy a winter beater instead given the car does not have PSM. I cannot imagine it is a big deal not having it in the rain unless I am driving in a very spirited manner.

Ray S

Jon,

From my own perspective I think the handling behavior of the 993, 996, and 997 are worlds apart from the earlier 911's. I think you are correct that the limits of the later cars are indeed much higher however I think that the later cars handle in a much more benign fashion once those limits are reached or even exceeded. I do not at all mean to impart that even the latest 997 is not a rear engine car that needs respect. Rather, at street speeds those limits are extremely high and if they are exceeded the later cars will not "bite" anywhere near as hard as the earlier models will (at least in my experience).

s-spiff

Mark,
I live in Toronto and have a '99 C2 (no PSM available). I drove the car everyday in the past winter with snow tires and it actually felt better than my awd Audi TT that I had before it. I think it's more that the C2 was able to communicate so clearly what was going on and was very easily controlled. Never a problem on hills, turning, traction, etc as long as you weren't being reckless. Only thing I ever had to worry about was ground clearance when the snow got too deep, which, in the city was never.

jasper

I drove my non PSM car through one winter also. Granted it was a BC winter but I did see snow and lots and lots of rain.

The car was fine - great even. I installed a set of Blizzak full snow tires on 17" Boxster rims.

Don't even consider the lack of PSM as an issue. You've driven cars before right? Did they *all* have traction control? WTF is the matter with you?

violinfather

Point taken. Coming from Alberta where I owned a RWD truck without traction control obviously it should not be an issue. But what if it does not have heated seats