Not an RMS Problem?
05-13-2009, 05:17 AM
#1
5th Gear
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Not an RMS Problem?
Gents,
I recently (about 1month ago) had my RMS and IMS done whilst having a clutch change and major service done on my 2003 996 C2 CAB by a local Indepedant who I have been using for years with previous Porsches. However, there is still a small amount of oil leaking from a nearby area, which concerns me.
Anyway, it takes about 100 or so miles to accumulate what you see in the attached picture, but wondered if anyone knew the exact location of this leak (i.e. what the part is called). The leak is definitely coming from where the yellow arrow is, as I have cleaned off a few times and re-checked and it comes from exactly this point. For the record the actual RMS adjacent to this is bone dry and I understand it had the latest 997 seal installed.
I know this is probably not too much to worry about as the leak is slight, but would appreciate any comments.
btw; my car runs Mobil water, i.e. 0W40 viscosity.
Many thanks,
Dave
I recently (about 1month ago) had my RMS and IMS done whilst having a clutch change and major service done on my 2003 996 C2 CAB by a local Indepedant who I have been using for years with previous Porsches. However, there is still a small amount of oil leaking from a nearby area, which concerns me.
Anyway, it takes about 100 or so miles to accumulate what you see in the attached picture, but wondered if anyone knew the exact location of this leak (i.e. what the part is called). The leak is definitely coming from where the yellow arrow is, as I have cleaned off a few times and re-checked and it comes from exactly this point. For the record the actual RMS adjacent to this is bone dry and I understand it had the latest 997 seal installed.
I know this is probably not too much to worry about as the leak is slight, but would appreciate any comments.
btw; my car runs Mobil water, i.e. 0W40 viscosity.
Many thanks,
Dave
05-13-2009, 09:28 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
This could also be a very early symptom of impending IMS bearing failure, especially since they replaced the bearing flange at the time the RMS was done..
This oil appears to be clean, so thats good since the oil that generally leaks from the IMS failures is a nasty, black oil thats become trapped within the IMS for a long period of time.
Its not bad now and the revised RMS seldom give any issues, but I would keep a watch on it.
This oil appears to be clean, so thats good since the oil that generally leaks from the IMS failures is a nasty, black oil thats become trapped within the IMS for a long period of time.
Its not bad now and the revised RMS seldom give any issues, but I would keep a watch on it.
05-13-2009, 10:17 AM
#5
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Seems to me that if this was replaced a month ago, might be better to take it back to the shop and have them address it specifically. I know it's tough to warrant seals, but come on, a month???
Just my $0.02.
(EDIT: Now I see this is becoming more of a "scare thread" - which is okay I guess - I'm outta here! Seems to me this is best handled with the shop rather than speculation and worst-case scenarios)
Last edited by eDoug; 05-13-2009 at 10:51 AM.
05-13-2009, 10:45 AM
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Just wanted to add some pictures to Jake's theory.
Short story. I thought I had the early symptoms of an RMS leak. The leak was not bad and I decided to wait until the leak became worse or the clutch needed replacing. IMS bearing ended up failing and I now have a new engine.
Moral of story is don't wait! I firmly believe I could have repaired the IMS bearing prior to failiure had I investigated the leak.
Link to pics: http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...sche%20Engine/
Short story. I thought I had the early symptoms of an RMS leak. The leak was not bad and I decided to wait until the leak became worse or the clutch needed replacing. IMS bearing ended up failing and I now have a new engine.
Moral of story is don't wait! I firmly believe I could have repaired the IMS bearing prior to failiure had I investigated the leak.
Link to pics: http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s...sche%20Engine/
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05-13-2009, 11:28 AM
#8
5th Gear
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Thanks Chaps/Doug. I'll get on to the shop and see what they say. The only reservation I have is that the seal I think is leaking is where my arrow is, not where the RMS is located to the top right of picture. I'm certain that it is leaking by my arrow, as I have cleaned the oil off a few times.
Anyway, thanks for the comments, I'll let you know how I get on.
Dave
Anyway, thanks for the comments, I'll let you know how I get on.
Dave
05-13-2009, 12:52 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Geez, if that doesn't keep you up at night (quote above), what will? Why would you jump straight into a hypothesis that this could be an early symptom of IMS failure?
Why did I make my earlier statement?? Because of issues just like the one quoted below...
The leak was not bad and I decided to wait until the leak became worse or the clutch needed replacing. IMS bearing ended up failing and I now have a new engine
The RMS and IMS leak oil at the same spot, thanks to gravity...
BUT it is a possibility that your shop did not have the 400.00 Porsche tool for installing the revised RMS and to do the job correctly this tool is required. I have installed thousands of seals, but without the tool this one kicked my ***.
oneyedjack,
If this IMS bearing issue would have happened to you today, we **probably** could have saved the engine with our recent developments related to the IMS bearing failure.
05-13-2009, 02:24 PM
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Jake,
I hate to say it but I was "one of those that called you" albeit, too late. Had I dug into it before it became fatal, I could have installed one of your revised bearings. The replacement crate engine came with the revised IMS "double row" bearing and is not servicable, at least without splitting the case. So I currently have to put all my faith into the factory's revised design.
I think too many people are quick to blame RMS without actually removing the tranny and clutch to investigate the true source of the leak. At least in my case, I knew I had a minor leak and had I addressed it and repaired the IMS bearing, I would have saved the engine.
Have a look at the picture link in my previous post, my RMS was fine. All my leaking came from a failing IMS bearing "wobbling" the shaft until the screw finally sheared at the end plate/seal.
I hate to say it but I was "one of those that called you" albeit, too late. Had I dug into it before it became fatal, I could have installed one of your revised bearings. The replacement crate engine came with the revised IMS "double row" bearing and is not servicable, at least without splitting the case. So I currently have to put all my faith into the factory's revised design.
I think too many people are quick to blame RMS without actually removing the tranny and clutch to investigate the true source of the leak. At least in my case, I knew I had a minor leak and had I addressed it and repaired the IMS bearing, I would have saved the engine.
Have a look at the picture link in my previous post, my RMS was fine. All my leaking came from a failing IMS bearing "wobbling" the shaft until the screw finally sheared at the end plate/seal.
05-13-2009, 02:48 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Jake,
I hate to say it but I was "one of those that called you" albeit, too late. Had I dug into it before it became fatal, I could have installed one of your revised bearings. The replacement crate engine came with the revised IMS "double row" bearing and is not servicable, at least without splitting the case. So I currently have to put all my faith into the factory's revised design.
I think too many people are quick to blame RMS without actually removing the tranny and clutch to investigate the true source of the leak. At least in my case, I knew I had a minor leak and had I addressed it and repaired the IMS bearing, I would have saved the engine.
Have a look at the picture link in my previous post, my RMS was fine. All my leaking came from a failing IMS bearing "wobbling" the shaft until the screw finally sheared at the end plate/seal.
I hate to say it but I was "one of those that called you" albeit, too late. Had I dug into it before it became fatal, I could have installed one of your revised bearings. The replacement crate engine came with the revised IMS "double row" bearing and is not servicable, at least without splitting the case. So I currently have to put all my faith into the factory's revised design.
I think too many people are quick to blame RMS without actually removing the tranny and clutch to investigate the true source of the leak. At least in my case, I knew I had a minor leak and had I addressed it and repaired the IMS bearing, I would have saved the engine.
Have a look at the picture link in my previous post, my RMS was fine. All my leaking came from a failing IMS bearing "wobbling" the shaft until the screw finally sheared at the end plate/seal.
I know DOZENS of engines that could have been saved (and now can be saved much easier with our new processes) when the IMS bearing starts to scream to the Owner that it is going bad.
If in doubt, verify.
05-13-2009, 03:13 PM
#12
Rocky Mountain High
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That's what I was wondering, especially with the RMS replacement being only a month old...
05-14-2009, 08:27 AM
#14
996BKM,
Here's an article about the RMS that will explain things
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...e=post&id=3223
The new 997 seal has to be set back 5 mm with a special Porsche tool.
The RMS sits directly above the IMS inside the housing, so either one leaking could show up in that general vicinity.
Just before he passed away, Jim Pasha had a article in the Dec 2008 issue of Excellence "M96: Past, Present, and Future" which basically explains IMS failures. Jake Raby (Flat 6 Innovations) and LN Engineering are quoted extensively in that article. If you can find it, it's worth a read.
IMHO the takeaway message from all this information is that many oil leaks in the area of the RMS/IMS could be nothing. BUT, a symptom of a lot of the engines which have had serious problem was an oil leak.
Here's an article about the RMS that will explain things
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index...e=post&id=3223
The new 997 seal has to be set back 5 mm with a special Porsche tool.
The RMS sits directly above the IMS inside the housing, so either one leaking could show up in that general vicinity.
Just before he passed away, Jim Pasha had a article in the Dec 2008 issue of Excellence "M96: Past, Present, and Future" which basically explains IMS failures. Jake Raby (Flat 6 Innovations) and LN Engineering are quoted extensively in that article. If you can find it, it's worth a read.
IMHO the takeaway message from all this information is that many oil leaks in the area of the RMS/IMS could be nothing. BUT, a symptom of a lot of the engines which have had serious problem was an oil leak.
05-14-2009, 11:01 AM
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I did not mean to say that all leaking IMS seals are a sign of impending IMS bearing failure. No conspiracy here. In my case, my original engine had a single row IMS sealed bearing that could have been replaced without splitting the case. I MIGHT (just might) have noticed this during an IMS seal replacement.
As to how a failing bearing may cause a leak, the IMS bearings are sealed ball bearings similar to wheel bearings not plain type bearings. When they fail, the IMS wobbles and puts stress on the IMS seal/endplate compromising the seal. This by the way, is a wild *** guess.
