Thundertub

Porsche AG will continue to build cars, race, and do contract engineering, as it has always done. In fact, with this this merger, the engineering resources of Porsche AG are now expanded to include VW Group. This means more work for the engineers, some platform sharing such as the Cayenne and the Panamera, and lots of trickle up and trickle down manufacturing economies. It takes Porsche AG away from the "boutique" image it sometimes has. With both Lamborghini and Bugatti in the fold, there are enough boutiques at VW Group. The real measure comes as they take on BMW directly in the performance sedan area. The foray into luxury sedans a few years ago was not well received by the masses , so Daimler-Benz is off the hook for a bit. The full BMW attack into performance luxury sedans is now being waged by AUDI A8/S8/RS8, the VW CC, and, and the Panamera - all worthy competitors in that market.

htny

The funny thing, at least to me, is that a Porsche badged W12 phaeton would likely have sold and sold well. North of 50K you're always going to run into badge consciousness.

JDSStudios

Great posts Mark, thanks!

I always wonder though, how much separation those entities have- Porsche, VW, Audi,
Lamborghini, Bugatti, Seat... did I miss any?
If they are all owned... should I say merged, I wonder what is common, and not.

Thundertub

It's not about separation. It is about joint development. Without VW Group, there would be no Bugatti Veyron. Without VW Group there would be no new Lamborghini's of any kind. Without VW Group there would be no Audi R8 for the street or R10's to dominate the tracks of the world. And there would be no Cayenne.
No matter how you feel about the existance of the Cayenne in the Porsche sales inventory, it is because of the Cayenne that there even is a Porsche inventory these past few years. Cayenne has more than carried the financial burden and saved Porsche AG from becoming an Oldsmobile - just history. Porsche AG is the most profitable car builder on the planet. And Cayenne is by far the most profitable vehicle in its line-up. If it is over-priced, it is only because the accuser cannot afford it. Those who can afford it buy it. Cayenne sales did not drop during the high gas prices last summer. In fact, in many parts of the world, sales increased. This means there are enough folks out there who like the fact that Porsche AG builds an SUV, that the price of gas is not a consideration in their purchase. And I have it on good authority that the Panamera market is there as well.

Often, it is the very folks on this forum who are the first to disparage any new Porsches. I remind you that this specific forum is dedicated to the 996, which has been out of production for 6 years. Since then, we have welcomed the Cayenne, the Cayman, the Panamera, and an entirely new series of 911 which itself has just about reached the end if its production life.

Not to worry...

Thundertub

To be worried about sharing of parts and technology is to completely ignore the entire history of Porsche automobiles. I suggest you read (or perhaps, reread) a good book about Porsche history from the beginning, through the middle, and into the current times. It will tell you the future.

JDSStudios

OK Nostradamus
I am not ignoring a thing, and I do read re-read a few things about cars, and I do like Porsche's history.
My point was about separation as in decision making.

What I meant by separation was how a merge like this one,
affects each division or entity, when they design and create a car.

It is about joint development, as well as separate development.
I was wondering how much separation. Just how much, the future will tell.

Thundertub

Well, it is hard to tell the detail of the separation right now. I am personally hoping there is a lot less separation. It was good for Lamborghini and Bugatti. Lamborghini benefitted from Audi engineering, not the other way around. They now run Bosch electrics and engine management systems instead of Marelli. LOL!
Porsche AG has always worked extrememly close with VW/Audi/Seat (let's see, Porsche #1, 914, 924, Audi Avant TT) and many other carmakers - Chevrolet, Packard, Harley V-Rod, Daimler (500E was essentially a 928 sedan) to touch just a couple. They are first an engineering firm. This merger is a big step toward ensuring Porsche engineers will have plenty of work and plenty of capital for the future. I do not see it as a possible watering down of Porsche construction or management, but rather the other way.
My glass is half full on this one.

fpena944

I agree with you here and am hopeful about the merger. With VW's support Porsche can concentrate on putting out superior product instead of creating what generates the highest profits.

This is much easier to do when you have the support of a larger organization that can help subsidize some of the costs for R&D that would normally be consumed by now redundant business functions.

JDSStudios

I hope the joint development values that separation and Porsche history.

I wouldn't want a 911 that has the front looking like a Jetta,
and a 70 Horse Power engine, because the newly merged department
now focuses on economy above performance.

I would much prefer several 1000HP Porsches to choose from, when
we go shopping

Thundertub

I don't think that it is VW Group Development that you need to worry about when it comes to honoring history.
It think Porsche AG has your future all figured out: Panamera GT2RS - has the look, has the NEW look, has the big hp twin turbo V8 up front where it can be properly cooled with water and air, has the drive in the rear, shorten the chassis and lose two doors... Voila! 998...

And how convenient it would be if it was a 998 since it would harken back to the 928 which Porsche ran for 20 years...

That would finally open the door for the Cayman/S/Boxster/S, same price coupe or convertible with a Cayman GT3RS...

No room left there for old school design/technology (911). It is now the second decade of the 21st Century...

The merger doesn't mean cheap front engine/drive cars for Porsche from VW. Instead, it means Porsche is now free to persue the future of fast, expensive cars, by NOT having to make intro-level cars to cover survival from the bottom.

The dealer of the future returns to handling Porsche, Audi, VW, and (in some markets) Lamborghini and Bugatti, in a multiplex of free-standing but land sharing buildings. Have you noticed that brand new Porsche dealerships, and renovated older ones, all share the same architectual design as new/renovated Audi dealerships? Been happin' like that for five years now...

huh.

Thundertub

Think that business model won't work? Have you been reading about the new GM Corp: Chevrolet (VW), Buick (Audi), Cadillac (Panamera, Cayenne), and Corvette (Porsche 9xx/987). All in fewer, but closely-grouped, dealerships.

htny

I think it's far more likely that the 911 move toward a more mid engined layout (as weight distributions have been over time) before they ever considered dropping it for a front (although I do love the front end of the panamera and would love to see, but not necessarily own, a 928 successor coupe based on it)

I think a decreasing number of purists would shy away from a mid engined 911, given the huge apparent proportion of PDK sales, AWD becoming so popular etc. Still, the performance of the 911 in the 996 and 997 generations was excellent, even compared to increasingly competent competition. They might not see any reason to mess with success at the roadcar level.

Thundertub

Over on the Panamera forum on this board, they have already been photo shopping Panameras with shorter nose, shorter tail, 2 doors, shorter wheel base. Some look pretty good to me. You may want to check those out.

htny

Don't get me wrong, photoshops are great and all, and as i said I'd love to see them build a new 928 based on the panamera's front end styling, but there is just no way I could ever see Porsche dropping the 911 in any of our lifetimes. You're far more likely to see a mid engine VW based on porsche engineering than a front engined 911.

Best,
Hans

Thundertub

htny,
Well, I can hardly disagree with you about the mid-engine VW probability since several have been in the works for years.

For me there is nothing but good news here, since the merger means the Porssche/Piech families now own in one entity what was theirs before WWII. It was the English who took the VW company after WWII and gave it to other folks to run. Eventually, through stock purchases, the Porsche/Piech families have regained total control of both companies, and now are under one umbrella. This is actually almost a non-event, since most outsiders thought it was that way already many decades ago.

As for a 911 Panamera, keep in mind the 928 was supposed to replace the 911 way back in the mid-1970's. Now that the Panamera exists and all 911's are water-cooled now for a decade, I think the pressures of the market, environment, and legislation may eventually put an end to the flat 6 engine.
I could be wrong.