02 996 tiptronic noise??
11-16-2008, 11:10 AM
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02 996 tiptronic noise??
Hello all,
Newbie here. I have a question about a 02 996 C4 cab. I've used the search feature here and have already learned tons of stuff about these great cars in the last few hours. My question pertains to the tiptronic. My friend is looking at purchasing this car and wanted me to "look it over". I realize it will need to go to a competant "indy" to recieve a proper inspection. However, I have a few questions which may save us the bother of going that far(meaning we may may pass on the car altogether)
I have read on here that there were some problems w/ 02 tiptronics? This car has 35,900 miles. The engine runs fantastic, There is a terrible noise at light throttle below 2000rpm in mostly 3,4,5 gears. It seems to be more pronounced in "manual" mode, but will also do it in "auto".
The noise is a terrible rumble, sort of like "crushing rocks", with a slight metallic "tinny" sound mixed in. It reminds me of a 964/993 manual transmission with a clubsport/RS solid flywheel, aside from the "tin" sound. I'm familiar w/ older aircooled models but unfortunately quite ignorant to these newer cars. I first thought the sound was a loose connection between the torque converter and the flywheel/ringgear? I got under the car and could not see any access to the flywheel, aside from two square rubber plugs in the bottom of the bellhousing. I pulled those and looked inside, also swabbed my finger around in both holes looking for fluid or debris. I didn't see much fluid, aside from very light "sweating", but not enough to even make a drop of fluid. I also noticed just a few tiny shiny metal flakes, but again, really just a few, so who knows where they came from or if they are "normal" The underside of the car is very dry and it appears the engine and transmission have never been removed.
Does the torque converter change it's behavior in "manaul mode"?
Also, there is a pronounced "jolt" either accelerating or decelerating in second gear at lower rpms, it almost feels like a "shift" but the trans is not shifting according to the gear indicator in the instrument panel. I've noticed a similar "jolt" in earlier 964/993 tiptronics (second gear) and always wondered wtf was that?
I should also mention the alternator trouble. He picked the car up friday evening to test drive for the weekend. The car lot had to charge the battery, or jump start. I'm not sure what they did. However, my friend called me and said the voltmeter was reading 11 volts. I told him to go back and get his other car as he had alternator trouble!! He later called back and said it was at 14. I told him he still may have trouble. Well, he made it home and called again saying the voltage went to 16 at some point and he noticed a pungent odor in the cab. I told him the alt. was overcharging and that was the battery boiling over that he smelled. Sure enough, saturday moring there was a small puddle of battey acid on his garage floor and in the battery tray.
I went over saturday morning and checked the alternator voltage at the battery w/ my DVOM. It fluctuated alot w/ rpm and the battery light was on. I called the car lot (whom I've dealt with in my "past life" as a porsche mech., for an indy) and described the trouble. We called the local dealer and they had an alternator in stock, ($ouch). The car lot paid for the alternator over the phone and I picked it up. I also went by the car lot and picked up a new interstate battery. I installed the alternator, battery, and cleaned out the battey compartment w/ baking soda and water untill there was no more "sizzle" from the soda. The voltage was now reading steady near 14 and all seemed well.
Time for a drive!! At first I was driving quite spiritedly, enjoying the torque of the 3.6! I was shocked at how well the car pulled, being a C4 Tiptronic Cabriolet. Eventually I calmed down and drove much slower listening for noises and such. Then, all of a sudden I hit the spot where the "rock crushing" noise took place. Another serious WTF?? The noise is consistent in 3,4,5 under 2000 rpm. It may be there in 1,2, but it's hard to accelerate in these gears and keep it under 2000 rpm. Aside from these problems the car is very nice, it's just what the guy wants, It's also priced well below market value and the car lot is willing to do whatever I say they should do!? (I know, no pressure, right?). My plan is to take it to the only competant "indy" in town (not my former shop), or the local dealer (less than enthusiastic about this proposition) and hopefully get a diagnosis. I was hoping to get more information from the collective group here ahead of time. Does it sound like he will need a transmission soon? Is there a fix for this trans? Are there any "torque tube" issues with these cars? The noise seems to be under the center console, it's hard to say, as it telegraphs througout the cabin. Also, while I had the alternator off, I spun all the idler pulleys, pumps, etc, and checked for wear, even though I hadn't discovered this noise yet. All seemed fine. Should he buy the car along with a good aftermarket warranty and wait for the trans to grenade? Could it be something else? Sorry for all the questions, I'm at a loss but would like to see both parties happy, they have both done me a lot of favors in the past so I'm sorta stuck in the middle.
Any input would be appreciated!! Thanks
Newbie here. I have a question about a 02 996 C4 cab. I've used the search feature here and have already learned tons of stuff about these great cars in the last few hours. My question pertains to the tiptronic. My friend is looking at purchasing this car and wanted me to "look it over". I realize it will need to go to a competant "indy" to recieve a proper inspection. However, I have a few questions which may save us the bother of going that far(meaning we may may pass on the car altogether)
I have read on here that there were some problems w/ 02 tiptronics? This car has 35,900 miles. The engine runs fantastic, There is a terrible noise at light throttle below 2000rpm in mostly 3,4,5 gears. It seems to be more pronounced in "manual" mode, but will also do it in "auto".
The noise is a terrible rumble, sort of like "crushing rocks", with a slight metallic "tinny" sound mixed in. It reminds me of a 964/993 manual transmission with a clubsport/RS solid flywheel, aside from the "tin" sound. I'm familiar w/ older aircooled models but unfortunately quite ignorant to these newer cars. I first thought the sound was a loose connection between the torque converter and the flywheel/ringgear? I got under the car and could not see any access to the flywheel, aside from two square rubber plugs in the bottom of the bellhousing. I pulled those and looked inside, also swabbed my finger around in both holes looking for fluid or debris. I didn't see much fluid, aside from very light "sweating", but not enough to even make a drop of fluid. I also noticed just a few tiny shiny metal flakes, but again, really just a few, so who knows where they came from or if they are "normal" The underside of the car is very dry and it appears the engine and transmission have never been removed.
Does the torque converter change it's behavior in "manaul mode"?
Also, there is a pronounced "jolt" either accelerating or decelerating in second gear at lower rpms, it almost feels like a "shift" but the trans is not shifting according to the gear indicator in the instrument panel. I've noticed a similar "jolt" in earlier 964/993 tiptronics (second gear) and always wondered wtf was that?
I should also mention the alternator trouble. He picked the car up friday evening to test drive for the weekend. The car lot had to charge the battery, or jump start. I'm not sure what they did. However, my friend called me and said the voltmeter was reading 11 volts. I told him to go back and get his other car as he had alternator trouble!! He later called back and said it was at 14. I told him he still may have trouble. Well, he made it home and called again saying the voltage went to 16 at some point and he noticed a pungent odor in the cab. I told him the alt. was overcharging and that was the battery boiling over that he smelled. Sure enough, saturday moring there was a small puddle of battey acid on his garage floor and in the battery tray.
I went over saturday morning and checked the alternator voltage at the battery w/ my DVOM. It fluctuated alot w/ rpm and the battery light was on. I called the car lot (whom I've dealt with in my "past life" as a porsche mech., for an indy) and described the trouble. We called the local dealer and they had an alternator in stock, ($ouch). The car lot paid for the alternator over the phone and I picked it up. I also went by the car lot and picked up a new interstate battery. I installed the alternator, battery, and cleaned out the battey compartment w/ baking soda and water untill there was no more "sizzle" from the soda. The voltage was now reading steady near 14 and all seemed well.
Time for a drive!! At first I was driving quite spiritedly, enjoying the torque of the 3.6! I was shocked at how well the car pulled, being a C4 Tiptronic Cabriolet. Eventually I calmed down and drove much slower listening for noises and such. Then, all of a sudden I hit the spot where the "rock crushing" noise took place. Another serious WTF?? The noise is consistent in 3,4,5 under 2000 rpm. It may be there in 1,2, but it's hard to accelerate in these gears and keep it under 2000 rpm. Aside from these problems the car is very nice, it's just what the guy wants, It's also priced well below market value and the car lot is willing to do whatever I say they should do!? (I know, no pressure, right?). My plan is to take it to the only competant "indy" in town (not my former shop), or the local dealer (less than enthusiastic about this proposition) and hopefully get a diagnosis. I was hoping to get more information from the collective group here ahead of time. Does it sound like he will need a transmission soon? Is there a fix for this trans? Are there any "torque tube" issues with these cars? The noise seems to be under the center console, it's hard to say, as it telegraphs througout the cabin. Also, while I had the alternator off, I spun all the idler pulleys, pumps, etc, and checked for wear, even though I hadn't discovered this noise yet. All seemed fine. Should he buy the car along with a good aftermarket warranty and wait for the trans to grenade? Could it be something else? Sorry for all the questions, I'm at a loss but would like to see both parties happy, they have both done me a lot of favors in the past so I'm sorta stuck in the middle.
Any input would be appreciated!! Thanks
11-16-2008, 01:21 PM
#2
Race Car
Oh man, where to start? I had the '99-'01 tip in mine which is different from the '02 and up (I believe the '99-'01 was ZF and the '02 and up was the Getrag?).
I can tell you the trans was silent and never had a jolt at anytime other than a slight "nudge" when the torque converter "locked" in between every gear starting from 2nd on up to 5th.
I believe you are feeling that happening with the lock-up converter and linking it to failure. It is fine and designed that way for gas mileage.
The rock crushing sound, like I said, my '99-'01 never made such a sound and I had 102k miles when I sold it. I would search the 996 turbo forum for this sound because I believe the turbos used the same as the '02 and up tip?
I would highly recommend draining the fluid and check the magnets in the pan. There are 4 if my memory serves and they are pretty big.
*****But*****
Finding fluid for this car is impossible. I used Amsoil Universal ATF that met spec for mine. I finally found fluid for mine (spec wise) from cross-referencing an Audi website after I used the Amsoil......doh, oh well, the Amsoil did work fine though. Not sure which spec fluid is used for the '02 and up so do not use Amsoil until confirmed!
Hope this helps.
I can tell you the trans was silent and never had a jolt at anytime other than a slight "nudge" when the torque converter "locked" in between every gear starting from 2nd on up to 5th.
I believe you are feeling that happening with the lock-up converter and linking it to failure. It is fine and designed that way for gas mileage.
The rock crushing sound, like I said, my '99-'01 never made such a sound and I had 102k miles when I sold it. I would search the 996 turbo forum for this sound because I believe the turbos used the same as the '02 and up tip?
I would highly recommend draining the fluid and check the magnets in the pan. There are 4 if my memory serves and they are pretty big.
*****But*****
Finding fluid for this car is impossible. I used Amsoil Universal ATF that met spec for mine. I finally found fluid for mine (spec wise) from cross-referencing an Audi website after I used the Amsoil......doh, oh well, the Amsoil did work fine though. Not sure which spec fluid is used for the '02 and up so do not use Amsoil until confirmed!
Hope this helps.
11-16-2008, 01:40 PM
#3
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Cory, thank you very much for the insight! That does help. It's definately a different trans from the earlier, It looks nothing like the bottom of my 2000 Audi A-4 
That makes sense about the Torque conveter lock-up. The "jolt" was much worse after changing battery/alternator-perhaps there is some "adaption" involved? I'm not as worried about that as much as the noise. Thanks for the input about the turbo tiptronic. I will search there as well.
"professional shade tree mechanic" LMAO, that should be my title for the moment, although yesterday, "professional freezing rain in driveway mechanic" would have been more appropiate! Thank god the alternator doesn't take long...
Thanks again,
btw, as soon as my Paypal account payment posts, I can become a real member, this place is cool!
That makes sense about the Torque conveter lock-up. The "jolt" was much worse after changing battery/alternator-perhaps there is some "adaption" involved? I'm not as worried about that as much as the noise. Thanks for the input about the turbo tiptronic. I will search there as well.
"professional shade tree mechanic" LMAO, that should be my title for the moment, although yesterday, "professional freezing rain in driveway mechanic" would have been more appropiate! Thank god the alternator doesn't take long...
Thanks again,
btw, as soon as my Paypal account payment posts, I can become a real member, this place is cool!
11-16-2008, 04:12 PM
#4
Race Car
Cory, thank you very much for the insight! That does help. It's definately a different trans from the earlier, It looks nothing like the bottom of my 2000 Audi A-4
That makes sense about the Torque conveter lock-up. The "jolt" was much worse after changing battery/alternator-perhaps there is some "adaption" involved? I'm not as worried about that as much as the noise. Thanks for the input about the turbo tiptronic. I will search there as well.
"professional shade tree mechanic" LMAO, that should be my title for the moment, although yesterday, "professional freezing rain in driveway mechanic" would have been more appropiate! Thank god the alternator doesn't take long...
Thanks again,
btw, as soon as my Paypal account payment posts, I can become a real member, this place is cool!
That makes sense about the Torque conveter lock-up. The "jolt" was much worse after changing battery/alternator-perhaps there is some "adaption" involved? I'm not as worried about that as much as the noise. Thanks for the input about the turbo tiptronic. I will search there as well.
"professional shade tree mechanic" LMAO, that should be my title for the moment, although yesterday, "professional freezing rain in driveway mechanic" would have been more appropiate! Thank god the alternator doesn't take long...
Thanks again,
btw, as soon as my Paypal account payment posts, I can become a real member, this place is cool!
Yeah, I am pretty sure that it is the Getrag unit.
Being the lock-up is electronic I would assume the voltage fluctuation may of interfered?
If the tranny were to fail, there is a website called something like european transmissions that have the ones for these cars at a reasonble price if one were to fail.
Aw man, working in the cold rain, I cant do unless broke down on the side of the road.
Yes, this site does have a lot to offer and if you become a member, you get to go into Off Topic which is very entertaining and sometimes, I mean sometimes, informative.....
11-16-2008, 06:02 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
The newer unit (02+ Carreras and 01+ turbos) is actually a Mercedes 722.6 series part, on a C4 cab I would have to double check the p/n, but it's about $18K list, best case $10-$12K rebuilt (and hard to find) for the C4S coupe and I'm fairly confident it's the same unit in the cab.
I would run run run from the vehicle you're looking at. They are great transmissions, with the only real glitches easily resolved electronically or with tiny updated sealing and connector type parts, but anything major and you have to get away because almost nobody repairs them, it's a replace. A core is worth maybe $2-$3K.
I've personally had 4 cars including a 996 and 3 MB/AMGs with this transmission, have worked on an AMG spec one successfully, and I can't say enough good things, but I would NEVER get anywhere near buying what you are describing. There are far too many cars in the market right now to inherit these kinds of problems. If your friend decides to proceed, I can send you guys an electrical test program for the transmissions which will allow you to determine whether or not it's electric/electronic, but given how the units work, I am 90% sure it's an internal, non-electronic/non-electrical issue you're experiencing.
I would run run run from the vehicle you're looking at. They are great transmissions, with the only real glitches easily resolved electronically or with tiny updated sealing and connector type parts, but anything major and you have to get away because almost nobody repairs them, it's a replace. A core is worth maybe $2-$3K.
I've personally had 4 cars including a 996 and 3 MB/AMGs with this transmission, have worked on an AMG spec one successfully, and I can't say enough good things, but I would NEVER get anywhere near buying what you are describing. There are far too many cars in the market right now to inherit these kinds of problems. If your friend decides to proceed, I can send you guys an electrical test program for the transmissions which will allow you to determine whether or not it's electric/electronic, but given how the units work, I am 90% sure it's an internal, non-electronic/non-electrical issue you're experiencing.
11-16-2008, 06:05 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
Oh and guys fluid for the vehicle you can buy ATF specifically for 722.6 electronic transmissions from any chrysler dealer, because the 300 and the crossfire are basically an e-class and an slk. It's not cheap even there, but cheaper than porsche or MB branded. It's all made by MB though, they never licensed it to my knowledge.
11-16-2008, 06:11 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
I missed the last part of your post RSRMIKE re: you being close to both parties.
PM me your email address and I'll try to send you the test program when I get back to my main computer tomorrow or Tuesday and you guys can take a crack at testing. Basically you're going to ring the wires, and if any are off spec, r&r. it's not complicated compared to tearing apart a transmission!
I need you to do this first though: Jump on renntech and search there for the ETC & TCU locations for the 02+ 996 (I don't know where it is in the 996 version of the transmission, mine's been great so I never bothered, but one will be on or near the transmission and the other should be near the main computer).
PM me your email address and I'll try to send you the test program when I get back to my main computer tomorrow or Tuesday and you guys can take a crack at testing. Basically you're going to ring the wires, and if any are off spec, r&r. it's not complicated compared to tearing apart a transmission!
I need you to do this first though: Jump on renntech and search there for the ETC & TCU locations for the 02+ 996 (I don't know where it is in the 996 version of the transmission, mine's been great so I never bothered, but one will be on or near the transmission and the other should be near the main computer).
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11-16-2008, 06:38 PM
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Update:
I just got a call from my friend, apparently, he drove it some more last night and today and cannot duplicate the noise or the "jolt". It seems like it must have something to do with "adaption" or voltage? Could this have been aggravated by the high voltage before disconnecting the battery? Or perhaps my enthusiastic driving shortly after reconnecting the battery? FWIW, it ran 10-15 minutes in the driveway and I drove several minutes out of my neighborhood until I had a suitable place to accelerate. Who knows, I know just enough about these newer cars to theorize myself into a sea of total confusion!! I hate to think how bad the later cars can/will screw with my head.
Thanks for your help Cory, I should clarify it was more of a "drizzle" than a downpour, just enough to make my wife feel sorry for me It happened to be the hardest, the only time she walked out to check on me. Considering the other pro shade tree job taking up my garage is an LS1 944, I wouldn't have cared if it was snowing! It was so nice to do something straightforward... until this noise came up. If the PPI checks out, it looks like a done deal, hopefully I won't have to contend w/ this in the future. I would still appreciate any other thoughts or info. I'll never convince myself this was normal on my own...
Thanks again!
I just got a call from my friend, apparently, he drove it some more last night and today and cannot duplicate the noise or the "jolt". It seems like it must have something to do with "adaption" or voltage? Could this have been aggravated by the high voltage before disconnecting the battery? Or perhaps my enthusiastic driving shortly after reconnecting the battery? FWIW, it ran 10-15 minutes in the driveway and I drove several minutes out of my neighborhood until I had a suitable place to accelerate. Who knows, I know just enough about these newer cars to theorize myself into a sea of total confusion!! I hate to think how bad the later cars can/will screw with my head.
Thanks for your help Cory, I should clarify it was more of a "drizzle" than a downpour, just enough to make my wife feel sorry for me
It happened to be the hardest, the only time she walked out to check on me. Considering the other pro shade tree job taking up my garage is an LS1 944, I wouldn't have cared if it was snowing! It was so nice to do something straightforward... until this noise came up. If the PPI checks out, it looks like a done deal, hopefully I won't have to contend w/ this in the future. I would still appreciate any other thoughts or info. I'll never convince myself this was normal on my own...Thanks again!
11-16-2008, 06:46 PM
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$18K??!!! Dear god, that's over half the current sale price of this car! I wouldn't be surprised at all by $6-8K for an exchange but...Wow. I wouldn't guess an aftermarket warranty would cover that cost?? Thank you very much for that info. Sending P.M. right now!
11-17-2008, 07:21 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
I had to replace the unit in my 99, and I found a replacement (that has worked great), for $2500 at Oklahoma foreign. My original went bad (we think) after it ran low on fluid. I didn't have any weird noises, but the jolts were there, and it is definitely not normal. Also, as mentioned above, if anything substantial goes wrong with these its pretty big money, so caveat emptor.
11-17-2008, 11:47 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
rsrmike,
There is a TSB that covers the symptoms you mention for the 02 tips. You can find it on Renntech. The grinding/jolting results from driving the car too easily. Drive it much harder or buy the new controller mentioned in the TSB to get rid of you problem.
Scott is correct abot fluid levels. The Tips are very sensitive to correct levels. You must use the correct procedure when refilling or you will destroy the unit. if the records show the fluid being replaced recently, I would get it rechecked quickly before you destroy something.
There is a TSB that covers the symptoms you mention for the 02 tips. You can find it on Renntech. The grinding/jolting results from driving the car too easily. Drive it much harder or buy the new controller mentioned in the TSB to get rid of you problem.
Scott is correct abot fluid levels. The Tips are very sensitive to correct levels. You must use the correct procedure when refilling or you will destroy the unit. if the records show the fluid being replaced recently, I would get it rechecked quickly before you destroy something.
11-18-2008, 11:19 AM
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Thank you very much guys. It's going to a local indy today, whom I trust very much, for a full PPI. I'll ask him about the TSB, and look for it myself. He also has a PST2.
I also mentioned he should probably service the trans. My friend just mentioned a warning on the the dash saying, "tiptronic emergency mode" or something to that effect, along with several other warnings when he drove it home w/ alternator trouble(against my advice
). It was doing all sorts of weird stuff considering the battery voltage was 16+ volts. It's a wonder it didn't cook the whole electrical system! It did boil the battery though. I'm guessing the flunkie at the car lot either hooked the battery cables or charger up backwards momentarily, or fried the alternator jumpstarting it. I have no idea what transpired, I wasn't there to witness.
That's funny, one solution is to "drive it harder"!! I agree, it performs flawlessly when driven quick. It wasn't until creeping up the hill in my neighborhood, watching for pets and small children, that I noticed the noise.
It doesn't appear the fluid has been changed recently, the car has 35K miles. the drainplugs look untouched as does the rest of the bottom of the car, and it is quite dry so hopefully no fluid level issues. I mentioned servicing the trans considering it went into "emergency mode" when the voltage went crazy. I wondered if it overheated the fluid? I doubt it with that huge cooler but who knows...
I'll have to check out renntech, as a few of you mentioned, man o man these water pumpers have a steep learining curve!! I'm so glad there is info available, thanks so much for all the input. I'll report back after the PPI.
Mike
I also mentioned he should probably service the trans. My friend just mentioned a warning on the the dash saying, "tiptronic emergency mode" or something to that effect, along with several other warnings when he drove it home w/ alternator trouble(against my advice
). It was doing all sorts of weird stuff considering the battery voltage was 16+ volts. It's a wonder it didn't cook the whole electrical system! It did boil the battery though. I'm guessing the flunkie at the car lot either hooked the battery cables or charger up backwards momentarily, or fried the alternator jumpstarting it. I have no idea what transpired, I wasn't there to witness. That's funny, one solution is to "drive it harder"!! I agree, it performs flawlessly when driven quick. It wasn't until creeping up the hill in my neighborhood, watching for pets and small children, that I noticed the noise.
It doesn't appear the fluid has been changed recently, the car has 35K miles. the drainplugs look untouched as does the rest of the bottom of the car, and it is quite dry so hopefully no fluid level issues. I mentioned servicing the trans considering it went into "emergency mode" when the voltage went crazy. I wondered if it overheated the fluid? I doubt it with that huge cooler but who knows...
I'll have to check out renntech, as a few of you mentioned, man o man these water pumpers have a steep learining curve!! I'm so glad there is info available, thanks so much for all the input. I'll report back after the PPI.
Mike
