December Excellence aericle on M96
11-12-2008, 01:35 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
Jake, first of all, WELCOME TO RENNLIST!
It's a pleasure to count with your knowledge.
I live in Madrid (Spain) and as I'm one of 3 owners and admin of best spanish spoken forum in the internet, I'm always trying to learn and improve just looking for english and american forums.
I've seen 3 engines blown by myself belonging to soloporschers, and have several cases documented in Soloporsche.com
We want to get more information, and there are some soloporschers terrified with the M96 issues.
In the last 6 months, several 987, 997, and 996 had an engine failure, and as you well know, internet is quite good to get information, but besides It's too dangerous when people become to say stupid things just heard from others without any data, so we have to go with care, and being as more serious as we could be, so I'm very glad to read you here.
I could see in your web that what you're doing is very similar to Autofarm.
I'm sure that's the only way to have a m96 till the end of the days...
I'm very careful with my car and do the oil change and all the rest of maintenance every 10.000 km always with Mobil 5W50.
Could you tell us some advices to keep our babies as better as possible?
Thanks in advance, and congrats for this fantastic job.
Well done , well done
It's a pleasure to count with your knowledge.
I live in Madrid (Spain) and as I'm one of 3 owners and admin of best spanish spoken forum in the internet, I'm always trying to learn and improve just looking for english and american forums.
I've seen 3 engines blown by myself belonging to soloporschers, and have several cases documented in Soloporsche.com
We want to get more information, and there are some soloporschers terrified with the M96 issues.
In the last 6 months, several 987, 997, and 996 had an engine failure, and as you well know, internet is quite good to get information, but besides It's too dangerous when people become to say stupid things just heard from others without any data, so we have to go with care, and being as more serious as we could be, so I'm very glad to read you here.
I could see in your web that what you're doing is very similar to Autofarm.
I'm sure that's the only way to have a m96 till the end of the days...
I'm very careful with my car and do the oil change and all the rest of maintenance every 10.000 km always with Mobil 5W50.
Could you tell us some advices to keep our babies as better as possible?
Thanks in advance, and congrats for this fantastic job.
Well done , well done
Last edited by juankimalo; 11-12-2008 at 02:58 PM.
11-12-2008, 02:26 PM
#32
Newbies Hospitality Director
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Jake, it is great that you took the time to respond on Rennlist. I, for one, really appreciate you doing this.
I am one of those "people that are not engine savvy" for the most part. I understand the basics of internal combustion engines, but that is about it. I learn more each time I read articles like the Excellence article, but "understanding" and "being knowledgeable" are two totally different things. I "understand" while you and many others "have the knowledge," and I certainly appreciate that knowledge.
Thanks again for posting and WELCOME to Rennlist!
I am one of those "people that are not engine savvy" for the most part. I understand the basics of internal combustion engines, but that is about it. I learn more each time I read articles like the Excellence article, but "understanding" and "being knowledgeable" are two totally different things. I "understand" while you and many others "have the knowledge," and I certainly appreciate that knowledge.
Thanks again for posting and WELCOME to Rennlist!
11-12-2008, 02:36 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Jake,
Thank you for taking the time and patience to respond. I am sure there will be a lot of questions many of us will ask following your post. I will lead with two.
1. If taking oil sample can measure the "soundness" of an engine. How many miles or hours should the oil must run?
2. This is a question many have asked but no one answered in the forum. Friendships and marriages have ended because of this question: What is the true failure rate of the M96 engine? Rather, my question should be rephrased as: What does your data say and the number of engines in your sampling?
Thanks in advance,
Thank you for taking the time and patience to respond. I am sure there will be a lot of questions many of us will ask following your post. I will lead with two.
1. If taking oil sample can measure the "soundness" of an engine. How many miles or hours should the oil must run?
2. This is a question many have asked but no one answered in the forum. Friendships and marriages have ended because of this question: What is the true failure rate of the M96 engine? Rather, my question should be rephrased as: What does your data say and the number of engines in your sampling?
Thanks in advance,
11-12-2008, 03:58 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Thanks so much for the warm welcome.. I'll enjoy it while I can because if this forum follows the path of others aggressions and scrutiny concerning what we are doing are just around the corner.
I want to say that what we are doing is as different from AutoFarm as it is similar. We are using totally different procedures with a totally different material for sleeve composition. The entire program is different from AutoFarm, and thats not a slam on them at all... I appreciate what they have been doing immensely but we have capitalized on the Nickies technology through previous experiences that date back to the first day that LN Engineering opened their doors.
We are also putting a ton of effort into the entire engine, not focusing on a single aspect or problem as we want to make global changes that will make the engine better all around as well as make it easier to understand and manipulate for the DIY or independent technician.
I'll now address a couple of questions the last poster had.1.
At least 5,000. Ultimately to establish trends and be able to make educated forecasts we'll need two years of data and at least 5-6 oil samples from most users. We'll also need to have some members of the program experience engine failures while being monitored to create the trend data needed for the best possible information.
This is a HIGHLY criticized topic. My *** would be hung out to dry if I gave any number at all. I prefer to only make general statements on this topic because most has been gathered from here on the net and it's validity would be highly questionable.
The only people that know this rate are at the Porsche reman center- they have seen more than anyone. Our numbers of engines is currently only in the dozens and certainly not enough to base anything from for a firm number of failures.
In 2-3 more years we'll have enough sampling to know some solid figures and by then the numbers will be even greater as mileage increases.
All I can say is drive it like you would if you were dying... Meaning have as much fun as you can and just don't worry about it. If it's gonna fail all you can do is sit back and wait for the bang. Worrying or selling the car won't keep it from occurring.
When it breaks know that it can be made better, faster and stronger without any assistance from Porsche.
I want to say that what we are doing is as different from AutoFarm as it is similar. We are using totally different procedures with a totally different material for sleeve composition. The entire program is different from AutoFarm, and thats not a slam on them at all... I appreciate what they have been doing immensely but we have capitalized on the Nickies technology through previous experiences that date back to the first day that LN Engineering opened their doors.
We are also putting a ton of effort into the entire engine, not focusing on a single aspect or problem as we want to make global changes that will make the engine better all around as well as make it easier to understand and manipulate for the DIY or independent technician.
I'll now address a couple of questions the last poster had.1.
If taking oil sample can measure the "soundness" of an engine. How many miles or hours should the oil must run?
2. This is a question many have asked but no one answered in the forum. Friendships and marriages have ended because of this question: What is the true failure rate of the M96 engine? Rather, my question should be rephrased as: What does your data say and the number of engines in your sampling?
The only people that know this rate are at the Porsche reman center- they have seen more than anyone. Our numbers of engines is currently only in the dozens and certainly not enough to base anything from for a firm number of failures.
In 2-3 more years we'll have enough sampling to know some solid figures and by then the numbers will be even greater as mileage increases.
All I can say is drive it like you would if you were dying... Meaning have as much fun as you can and just don't worry about it. If it's gonna fail all you can do is sit back and wait for the bang. Worrying or selling the car won't keep it from occurring.
When it breaks know that it can be made better, faster and stronger without any assistance from Porsche.
11-12-2008, 04:23 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
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It doesn't get much better than the 996 forum right now. We have hit the mother lode as far as expertise for our cars. It's like having Pete Zimmerman on the aircooled 911 forum, only Jake has moved a notch up from helping listers fix their cars to Jake developing a better design. The more of us who get these fixes, the more data is collected, the more is learned, it's like a Catch 22 clockwise, if you get my drift. How far have we come since the guy who had three catastrophic failures in his first year of being a 996 owner? He was crucified on this forum for being negative. I can't believe I forgot his name.
11-12-2008, 05:20 PM
#36
Race Director
It's hopeful to hear what can be done if we have an engine 'failure' other than the only prior option, which was a remanufactured engine from Porsche. Thanks for chiming in so quickley Jake, and welcome to a great forum. Nice to know that 996 owners may be able to forecast future engine problems...before they occur. Thanks again Jake.
11-12-2008, 06:02 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Jake,
Welcome to RL. Thanks for answering my questions over on BoxsterSpec. And thanks for your contributions to the M96 world. We needed options.
-Paul
Welcome to RL. Thanks for answering my questions over on BoxsterSpec. And thanks for your contributions to the M96 world. We needed options.
-Paul
Long time lurker... first time poster.
I was invited here to shed some light on our program that was highlighted in the Excellence article, and I'll try my best to do this in terms that can be understood by people that are not engine savvy.
The following quote from salayc earlier in this thread concerns me, because it isn't accurate and is based only on presumption.
I will now break this post down line by line and address all of it's content directly.
Absolutely we have data, why do you think Excellence came to us when wanting to do this article? Data, statistics and other forms of trends have been monitored for almost 5 years by LN Engineering, I have been gathering data, researching and working toward understanding these engines and their shortcomings for 3 years. I have two in house engine dyno labs at my facility as well as a chassis dyno and a 28 channel data logging system, all of which have been coupled to extreme dedication and a desire to understand these engines.
My R&D is known worldwide from my previous ventures with internal combustion engines (mainly aircooled Porsche and VW) and this is the reason why my services are used by other companies who want independent studies or practical application testing completed for their own products. Trust that we have more data available than anyone outside the confines of Porsche on the M96 engine.
Nope- Just facts. I won't sugar coat the issues. The things we state on the site can be quantified by reading any Porsche forum as they are being stated over and over again by people all over the world that have experienced the issues. We have seen these things first hand and thats the biggest difference other than the fact that we are in business and today's typical mind set is to hate the Vendor as we are all stereotyped as evil beings from the bowels of hell that are just here to take your money. Thats not the case with my business or any business that can be found in our network and our past experiences concretely prove this.
Assumption. Where is YOUR data to prove that the M96 is no more problematic than any other Porsche engine? If you ask me for data and then make a statement like this one I will also ask for data- it seems only fair.
I am one of those aircooled fans that has built 356,914 and 911 engines and have been very impressed with the strengths of these engines as well as their longevity- even at extended power output levels.
I do believe that "Real Porsches" don't have radiators and neither do real VWs and also that a "Real" Chevy has a 327 under the hood and isn't built from plastic. The fact is that the past generations of vehicles made their Owners fall in love with them and today car companies sell their modern cars based on the appeal that was generated by these love affairs with the "real" vehicles. It doesn't matter if it's Porsche or Ford today they are all the same.
I appreciate the Boxster and 996 for what they are, but I don't compare them with my 912 or any other aircooled Porsche that I have ever owned or driven.
Thats partially correct. Today if a Boxster loses it's engine a replacement can cost more than the car could be sold for and the same will probably start occurring with the 996 in a little while. This is partially the fault of Porsche by not making the rebuild parts and references more commonly available to independent Porsche shops. Try buying a set of main engine bearings for your car, lots of places list them but see who has them in stock- the first set I bought took 3 months to source. I got tired of begging for parts, so we are just making it all ourselves right here in the USA, not dependent upon Porsche at all for more than a gasket set for some engines.
Aside from providing turn key solutions to this issue with fully updated stock and performance engines my main goal is to provide local independent shops with the knowledge to work on these engines through our own training program as well as making them accessible to a full line of service and update components as well.
This will allow shops to WANT to work on your car because they don't have to wonder how to do the work and don't have to search for days to find the internal parts to do the job. In our estimation this will make the M96 engined vehicles maintain their value since they can be worked with and can be made faster and stronger. This is already occurring as several clients have purchased cars with blown engines dirt cheap and had them shipped straight to us for an engine upgrade before they ever laid eyes on the vehicle in person.
As the Boxster and 996 become cheaper we are also seeing more of them being made into track only vehicles. With added performance and reliability these vehicles can be tracked with more grin factor over a longer period of time.
I'll close by saying that the program we have been honing is multi-faceted and most of it will be shared in 09. We want to help the owner of the car to do work on his own vehicle with support DVDs, the rental and sales of special tools as well as technical consultation via email and telephone. Offering a service that tracks wear metals in the engine oil of your car over each oil change will also benefit the user by helping to forecast the chances of engine failure that a certain car may have compared to others in our data base or the samples of oil that have came from failed engines that we have gathered data from.
This oil monitoring service will also assist with the future re-sale of a car that has lower wear metal compositions by proving the oil has been tracked and that no engine failures are probable based on the trend data.
I appreciate all the kind words that have been stated on this forum as well as 1/2 dozen others on the net. I also appreciate all of the well wishing emails that we have received and even a couple of letters and goodie boxes that have been shipped to our facility to thank us for our energy with the M96 engine understanding and development. Trust that we are an innovative group of fire-pissing hard chargers that LOVE Porsches and want to help make the M96 live the life of of performance and endurance that has been expected from a Porsche for almost 60 years.
Jake Raby
President, Flat 6 Innovations
www.flat6innovations.com
I was invited here to shed some light on our program that was highlighted in the Excellence article, and I'll try my best to do this in terms that can be understood by people that are not engine savvy.
The following quote from salayc earlier in this thread concerns me, because it isn't accurate and is based only on presumption.
I will now break this post down line by line and address all of it's content directly.
Absolutely we have data, why do you think Excellence came to us when wanting to do this article? Data, statistics and other forms of trends have been monitored for almost 5 years by LN Engineering, I have been gathering data, researching and working toward understanding these engines and their shortcomings for 3 years. I have two in house engine dyno labs at my facility as well as a chassis dyno and a 28 channel data logging system, all of which have been coupled to extreme dedication and a desire to understand these engines.
My R&D is known worldwide from my previous ventures with internal combustion engines (mainly aircooled Porsche and VW) and this is the reason why my services are used by other companies who want independent studies or practical application testing completed for their own products. Trust that we have more data available than anyone outside the confines of Porsche on the M96 engine.
Nope- Just facts. I won't sugar coat the issues. The things we state on the site can be quantified by reading any Porsche forum as they are being stated over and over again by people all over the world that have experienced the issues. We have seen these things first hand and thats the biggest difference other than the fact that we are in business and today's typical mind set is to hate the Vendor as we are all stereotyped as evil beings from the bowels of hell that are just here to take your money. Thats not the case with my business or any business that can be found in our network and our past experiences concretely prove this.
Assumption. Where is YOUR data to prove that the M96 is no more problematic than any other Porsche engine? If you ask me for data and then make a statement like this one I will also ask for data- it seems only fair.
I am one of those aircooled fans that has built 356,914 and 911 engines and have been very impressed with the strengths of these engines as well as their longevity- even at extended power output levels.
I do believe that "Real Porsches" don't have radiators and neither do real VWs and also that a "Real" Chevy has a 327 under the hood and isn't built from plastic. The fact is that the past generations of vehicles made their Owners fall in love with them and today car companies sell their modern cars based on the appeal that was generated by these love affairs with the "real" vehicles. It doesn't matter if it's Porsche or Ford today they are all the same.
I appreciate the Boxster and 996 for what they are, but I don't compare them with my 912 or any other aircooled Porsche that I have ever owned or driven.
Thats partially correct. Today if a Boxster loses it's engine a replacement can cost more than the car could be sold for and the same will probably start occurring with the 996 in a little while. This is partially the fault of Porsche by not making the rebuild parts and references more commonly available to independent Porsche shops. Try buying a set of main engine bearings for your car, lots of places list them but see who has them in stock- the first set I bought took 3 months to source. I got tired of begging for parts, so we are just making it all ourselves right here in the USA, not dependent upon Porsche at all for more than a gasket set for some engines.
Aside from providing turn key solutions to this issue with fully updated stock and performance engines my main goal is to provide local independent shops with the knowledge to work on these engines through our own training program as well as making them accessible to a full line of service and update components as well.
This will allow shops to WANT to work on your car because they don't have to wonder how to do the work and don't have to search for days to find the internal parts to do the job. In our estimation this will make the M96 engined vehicles maintain their value since they can be worked with and can be made faster and stronger. This is already occurring as several clients have purchased cars with blown engines dirt cheap and had them shipped straight to us for an engine upgrade before they ever laid eyes on the vehicle in person.
As the Boxster and 996 become cheaper we are also seeing more of them being made into track only vehicles. With added performance and reliability these vehicles can be tracked with more grin factor over a longer period of time.
I'll close by saying that the program we have been honing is multi-faceted and most of it will be shared in 09. We want to help the owner of the car to do work on his own vehicle with support DVDs, the rental and sales of special tools as well as technical consultation via email and telephone. Offering a service that tracks wear metals in the engine oil of your car over each oil change will also benefit the user by helping to forecast the chances of engine failure that a certain car may have compared to others in our data base or the samples of oil that have came from failed engines that we have gathered data from.
This oil monitoring service will also assist with the future re-sale of a car that has lower wear metal compositions by proving the oil has been tracked and that no engine failures are probable based on the trend data.
I appreciate all the kind words that have been stated on this forum as well as 1/2 dozen others on the net. I also appreciate all of the well wishing emails that we have received and even a couple of letters and goodie boxes that have been shipped to our facility to thank us for our energy with the M96 engine understanding and development. Trust that we are an innovative group of fire-pissing hard chargers that LOVE Porsches and want to help make the M96 live the life of of performance and endurance that has been expected from a Porsche for almost 60 years.
Jake Raby
President, Flat 6 Innovations
www.flat6innovations.com
11-12-2008, 06:24 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
Yet again I appreciate the positive remarks...
Today has been like every other day in the past week or so since the article hit the stands- filed with phone calls from those interested and also from those who are just emailing or calling to say "Thanks".
We have lots of challenges in front of us and lots of work if this program is to be successful. The positive energy that has come from the majority of threads like this one here on the net certainly makes it easier to put in the long days needed to attain our results.
One thing that I need from members here and across the net is the contact information of local shops across the country that may be interested in using our technology. There are many more of these engines needing service/repair/update than we can service at our facility and we desperately need to get others trained on the problems and the fixes because not everyone is as lucky as smshirk is having our facility 45 minutes from his house.(he got on my build schedule today for a 3.2 based big bore 3.6 performer!)
Today has been like every other day in the past week or so since the article hit the stands- filed with phone calls from those interested and also from those who are just emailing or calling to say "Thanks".
We have lots of challenges in front of us and lots of work if this program is to be successful. The positive energy that has come from the majority of threads like this one here on the net certainly makes it easier to put in the long days needed to attain our results.
One thing that I need from members here and across the net is the contact information of local shops across the country that may be interested in using our technology. There are many more of these engines needing service/repair/update than we can service at our facility and we desperately need to get others trained on the problems and the fixes because not everyone is as lucky as smshirk is having our facility 45 minutes from his house.(he got on my build schedule today for a 3.2 based big bore 3.6 performer!)
11-12-2008, 07:59 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
The following quote from salayc earlier in this thread concerns me, because it isn't accurate and is based only on presumption.
Absolutely we have data, why do you think Excellence came to us when wanting to do this article? Data, statistics and other forms of trends have been monitored for almost 5 years by LN Engineering, I have been gathering data, researching and working toward understanding these engines and their shortcomings for 3 years. I have two in house engine dyno labs at my facility as well as a chassis dyno and a 28 channel data logging system, all of which have been coupled to extreme dedication and a desire to understand these engines.
Absolutely we have data, why do you think Excellence came to us when wanting to do this article? Data, statistics and other forms of trends have been monitored for almost 5 years by LN Engineering, I have been gathering data, researching and working toward understanding these engines and their shortcomings for 3 years. I have two in house engine dyno labs at my facility as well as a chassis dyno and a 28 channel data logging system, all of which have been coupled to extreme dedication and a desire to understand these engines.
Nope- Just facts. I won't sugar coat the issues. The things we state on the site can be quantified by reading any Porsche forum
today's typical mind set is to hate the Vendor as we are all stereotyped as evil beings from the bowels of hell that are just here to take your money.
Assumption. Where is YOUR data to prove that the M96 is no more problematic than any other Porsche engine? If you ask me for data and then make a statement like this one I will also ask for data- it seems only fair.
Don't get me wrong. It sounds like you know what you're doing. The response was not directed at you and your company as much as the endless speculation on this site and others by uninformed owners. However, it may help to calm the hysteria around these cars by tempering the language on your website. I find it very unprofessional for your company's stated policy to be: "They play their games, we play ours!"
Welcome to Rennlist
11-12-2008, 08:29 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
salayc,
You DID question our abilities in general when you made a blanket (and false) statement that we lacked data concerning this engine. In my experience data is everything because one must understand the issues and the failures to ever be effective with addressing them and providing solutions for them- so when you state that we have no data you are also indirectly stating that we are ineffective in general.
As far as being negative about Porsche by saying "They play their games and we play ours" it simply means that they have purposely taken parts from their supply system that are needed for independent shops to work on the engines. Tell me how this is fair to anyone? These actions were done to keep regular shops from being able to make repairs to the engines and that is very clear to see. Another example is a couple of simple tools (that we made ourselves) that Porsche sells for 2,000 bucks to assemble the engine- yet again this is done to promote engines being sent back to the factory to be remanufactured.
Now, put yourself in my shoes as a person thats trying to understand these engines and trying to purchase something as simple as a set of main bearings or an IMS bearing to buy simply to study, trying to find it's inadequacies. You'll be up against a system where nothing is available in most instances and that becomes very frustrating and then you end up just like me, fairly disgusted with a manufacturer that will produce an engines and not keep a supply system with adequate repair parts.
These actions were effective for almost a decade and kept lots of people from opening up the engine because they knew the parts, tools and assembly procedures didn't exist. Normal shops that aren't filled with engine developers, component designers and a full CNC machine shop with everyone working as a team would not have had the capabilities to just make the parts, make them stronger and do it all without having to order anything with a Porsche part number to recreate the engine.
Fight that opposition for about 3 years and you'll also see that its not fun and it's not fair to ANYONE that owns one of these cars equipped with an M96 engine. What happens when the support program from Porsche for these engines is discontinued? Who will work on your car's engine internally? How will they get the tools? Where will they get the parts?
I state things the way I see them and I'll stand proudly and debate with the best when challenged. A vocabulary of things that "people want to hear" doesn't exist with me. (yeah I am pretty old fashioned, though I am not very old.)
More than likely you never expected the guy that was featured in the article would care enough about his work to enter a forum and note your post-. Know that anything that I am involved with will be done completely.
As far as "calming hysteria" I am the guy thats promoting the "drive it and not worry about it" mindset. What I have been telling everyone is simple, change the oil more often, drive the car the way a Porsche should be and if the engine scatters deal with it- most people won't ever have a problem.
Worrying about an imminent issue does no good, keep AAA paid up and wait for the bang! (most will never hear one
You DID question our abilities in general when you made a blanket (and false) statement that we lacked data concerning this engine. In my experience data is everything because one must understand the issues and the failures to ever be effective with addressing them and providing solutions for them- so when you state that we have no data you are also indirectly stating that we are ineffective in general.
As far as being negative about Porsche by saying "They play their games and we play ours" it simply means that they have purposely taken parts from their supply system that are needed for independent shops to work on the engines. Tell me how this is fair to anyone? These actions were done to keep regular shops from being able to make repairs to the engines and that is very clear to see. Another example is a couple of simple tools (that we made ourselves) that Porsche sells for 2,000 bucks to assemble the engine- yet again this is done to promote engines being sent back to the factory to be remanufactured.
Now, put yourself in my shoes as a person thats trying to understand these engines and trying to purchase something as simple as a set of main bearings or an IMS bearing to buy simply to study, trying to find it's inadequacies. You'll be up against a system where nothing is available in most instances and that becomes very frustrating and then you end up just like me, fairly disgusted with a manufacturer that will produce an engines and not keep a supply system with adequate repair parts.
These actions were effective for almost a decade and kept lots of people from opening up the engine because they knew the parts, tools and assembly procedures didn't exist. Normal shops that aren't filled with engine developers, component designers and a full CNC machine shop with everyone working as a team would not have had the capabilities to just make the parts, make them stronger and do it all without having to order anything with a Porsche part number to recreate the engine.
Fight that opposition for about 3 years and you'll also see that its not fun and it's not fair to ANYONE that owns one of these cars equipped with an M96 engine. What happens when the support program from Porsche for these engines is discontinued? Who will work on your car's engine internally? How will they get the tools? Where will they get the parts?
I state things the way I see them and I'll stand proudly and debate with the best when challenged. A vocabulary of things that "people want to hear" doesn't exist with me. (yeah I am pretty old fashioned, though I am not very old.)
More than likely you never expected the guy that was featured in the article would care enough about his work to enter a forum and note your post-. Know that anything that I am involved with will be done completely.
As far as "calming hysteria" I am the guy thats promoting the "drive it and not worry about it" mindset. What I have been telling everyone is simple, change the oil more often, drive the car the way a Porsche should be and if the engine scatters deal with it- most people won't ever have a problem.
Worrying about an imminent issue does no good, keep AAA paid up and wait for the bang! (most will never hear one
11-12-2008, 09:08 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
salayc,
You DID question our abilities in general when you made a blanket (and false) statement that we lacked data concerning this engine. In my experience data is everything because one must understand the issues and the failures to ever be effective with addressing them and providing solutions for them- so when you state that we have no data you are also indirectly stating that we are ineffective in general.
You DID question our abilities in general when you made a blanket (and false) statement that we lacked data concerning this engine. In my experience data is everything because one must understand the issues and the failures to ever be effective with addressing them and providing solutions for them- so when you state that we have no data you are also indirectly stating that we are ineffective in general.
My response about data was directed at smshirk who stated (presumably based on your website) that you can back up your claims with "real data." I didn't see real and comprehensive data about M96 failure rates on your site. And I think your approach on the website hurts 996 owners in general.
I think manny_g post stating the M96 has " a porous block, cylinders which are subject to slippage and/or cracking, improperly designed ims, RMS issues, weak connecting rods, and cylinder heads subject to cracking." is only partially correct and shows the accepted hysteria surrounding these engines. For example, how many porous blocks have you seen? or "slipped" cylinders (I guess he was thinking of cylinder liners?)
Perhaps we misunderstand each other: on this site, users referring to " real data" generally mean engine failure rates. I would assume you have a lot of data about failed engine causes.
I still value the information you can provide about the engines. And, don't get me wrong, I am glad to see you post based upon your experience.
11-12-2008, 09:11 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Lawrenceville, GA
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Bob ? was the guy whose car torpedoed three times in succession inside a year. Does anyone remember how to get in touch with him. He really needs to hear all this, and especially to visit flat6's website. Seems like he bought an Aston Martin or something after the last time his car broke. I've been searching for those threads. I think it may have been in 2005 or 2006. He really took some abuse, granted he brought some of it on himself, but he got very little support here. I think it may vindicate him a little to hear what's been learned. I know I tried to speak up on his behalf once or twice and was flamed for my trouble. Not that it matters, but if anyone can find the threads I would like to try and get in touch.
11-12-2008, 09:50 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
I think you're misreading the post: having data about failure rates and having the ability to fix an engine are totally separate. I am confident you have valuable knowledge and expertise
The data about failure RATES and the failures themselves are totally different. I don't care anything about rates, except reducing them.
My response about data was directed at smshirk who stated (presumably based on your website) that you can back up your claims with "real data."
I didn't see real and comprehensive data about M96 failure rates on your site
Thats because we won't divulge everything- no one that has the outlay of time and money we have into this program would. We are on the cutting edge of a sword that was pretty dull for many years and we certainly care nothing about training our competitors. Been there and done that with the aircoled world.
And I think your approach on the website hurts 996 owners in general.
If stating the truth is disappointing I am guilty as charged. I suppose it's different when people have failures and post about them or when other people start sites that are focused on the inherent issues and failures associated with these engines, because they are not in business. Fact is these sites and forums are more damaging to the M96 than anything else, so you had best start slapping wrists every time anyone says anything negative about scattered parts anywhere on the net.
I think manny_g post stating the M96 has " a porous block, cylinders which are subject to slippage and/or cracking, improperly designed ims, RMS issues, weak connecting rods, and cylinder heads subject to cracking." is only partially correct and shows the accepted hysteria surrounding these engines. For example, how many porous blocks have you seen? or "slipped" cylinders (I guess he was thinking of cylinder liners?)
Perhaps we misunderstand each other: on this site, users referring to " real data" generally mean engine failure rates. I would assume you have a lot of data about failed engine causes.
I look for broken engines for cores and most people don't send us a core unless it's broken (unless they are smart and fix it before it breaks) so I am going to have a much higher rate of broken engine exposure than anyone else.
I'll also say that I care nothing about bitching about how Porsche has screwed the engine up and I don't care about suing them for the creation of the M96 engine, so how many engines have failed doesn't mean much to me at all. All I care about is keeping my failure rate at ZERO for absolutely as long as possible- what Porsche should have cared about.
I still value the information you can provide about the engines. And, don't get me wrong, I am glad to see you post based upon your experience.
11-12-2008, 09:53 PM
#45
Parts Specialist
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Well,
that took a while to come up to speed on, I just opened this today, sorry for the late arrival...
Jake... Welcome and Thank you for your insight and optimism for a business that should in the end benefit the water world or Porsche owners.
I am sure this is not all cut and dry, but its good to see a movement towards an understanding.
I will try not to get too far behind if this thread is going to reach epic scale!!
PS... want some of my oil?
106xxx miles on the original mill
that took a while to come up to speed on, I just opened this today, sorry for the late arrival...
Jake... Welcome and Thank you for your insight and optimism for a business that should in the end benefit the water world or Porsche owners.
I am sure this is not all cut and dry, but its good to see a movement towards an understanding.
I will try not to get too far behind if this thread is going to reach epic scale!!
PS... want some of my oil?
106xxx miles on the original mill