andrewk34

Hi,

I have two quick questions:

1) in terms of performance how does a 02-04 C2 996 compare with a *base* 997 C2? In terms of posted 0-60 times etc, they seem to be the same. What do people with experience with them both think?

2) I sometimes hear that 99-01 996's with the 3.4L engine make great track cars because (to quote from the FAQ):

"In addition, it is widely known within the Club racing tech circles that the 3.4L motor can be a wonderful racing motor as the shorter stroke can give higher revs and can be quite powerful when tuned properly."

Does that mean that they can be made to be better than the stock 3.6L for track purposes or just better than stock 3.4? Why is that?

Thanks.

BluesCast

Yeah good question I remember reading a Motor Trend article that stated they were able to get a stock 99 or 00 996 from 0-60 in 4.6 sec.

LiveNupe

I seem to recall the 3.6L with the X51 package (as found in my 40th anniversary car that will be up for sale soon) has a 0-60 time of 4.8 seconds.

bk12

I think the base 996 was at least as fast, or faster. Basically the same power, but I think the 997 is heavier.

DCP

If you could drive blindfolded, you would not notice the difference, at least on the Gen 1 997. Maybe in the newer 997. Haven't driven one yet.

jumper5836

997 nicer interior, better standard options but not any faster. Porsche Marketing for the 996 was 0-62 mph (0-100 kph), they moved to 0-60 mph spec when they introduced the 997.

MJBird993

Funny. Out in the "real" world people seem to think that the 997 is heads & shoulders better than the 996, but in truth it's just an evolution of the car with retro headlights.

Now, the new 997 (998?) with the direct injection should produce significantly more power (from what I remember reading) but if we're already at sub-five second times, I can't imagine them knocking off much more than a tenth off of that.

Michael

Irksome

The 997 Carrera S is a kick in the pants improvement over a base 996 Carrera (I had the opportunity to ride in a friend's 997S last weekend at an autocross, and I own an '03 Carrera). I don't know how the base 997 Carrera compares to the 996.

himself

I have plenty of video of my MY00 passing 997s on the track. Not much video the other way around, unless you count 997 GT3s and GT3 RS.

Probably the drivers and not the car, right

-td

jumper5836

997's or 997 S's

A stock 997 S is quite a lot faster then a stock 996

himself

Both. If you are getting passed by 997 or 997s on the track, maybe you should drive faster, lol

I don't agree that the S is "quite a lot faster" on the track. Maybe on paper or in a drag race. But the S only has 55 extra stock ponies - but at the expense of 200+ extra pounds. The weight to HP ratio isn't much different, and neither is the gearing. So the 996 is faster in the curves, and the 997S would be faster on the straight. Depending on the track, the 996 might be "quite a lot faster"...

Lastly, the 02-04 996 is in the same stock racing class as the 997S. This indicates that the 2 cars should be "equivalent" when racing. Early 996s and 997 (base) are in the same class. IMO, the same class would not qualify as "quite a lot faster" - or even any faster at all...

-td

Irksome

Well, I have to disagree (a little) with your disagreement. =)

The 997S driver and I were paired as instructor/student at the event. Our original plan was for each of us to drive the others' car for one session, but that ended up being only him driving my car (scheduling snafu). But we did get a single driver in both cars, and it was the better driver (he is one of the club's better drivers). He and I turned in similar times in my car, and his car was consistently faster (about 2 seconds, 72.8 vs 74.8).

The 997S is lower, wider, and has an improved suspension over a base 996. Our cars have a couple other differences, most notably he is running more rubber in front (I have 7.5" fronts, he's running 8.5", neither of which is stock).

If I were blind the the car I was a passenger in, I would agree it would be hard to tell the difference, but the track performance is definite and significant. Consider yourself lucky that the 997S's you are encountering are being driven with less skill than you have.

himself

Touche. But I'm still not convinced.

I'd be interested to see actual track data that illustates the 997S has a real-world advantage (vs a lap time result, which is more driver and traffic dependent).

Besides, 2 seconds on a 70 second circuit is only 3% difference. You can get that difference with changing weather conditions over the course of a day or 3 extra pounds of pressure in your tires...

-td

Irksome

In PCA Zone 8, a few of the brainiacs have tried to create a system to compare drivers independent of cars and modifications. They do this by looking at the track results, by class, over many events across the zone. This system is called the Bench Racer's Index, and more details about it can be found here: http://www.pcasdr.org/porsche_events...cers/index.php

Anyway, if you believe these guys did their work even vaguely correctly, you can see that the numbers support the idea that the 997S (which runs in PSS for stock setup) is penalized 3% more than the 996/997 non-S (which runs in OSS). Ie, the 997S is roughly 3% faster in autocross events in Zone 8.

The numbers don't seem to be completely out of whack. In the event last weekend, the 997S finished with a BRI adjusted number of 77.49, and my 996 and I finished with a BRI adjusted number of 77.48. Can't get much closer than that!

I think the BRI adjustment is slightly off, I think the difference is really closer to 2.5%, and I'm getting off easy. The 997S driver is definitely superior to me, and he probably should have been 0.25 seconds faster on the BRI if it was properly tuned. But I'm not complaining, I got 16th out of 83...

By the way, these results are consistent event to event. I usually beat this guy by a smidge in BRI, and he always beats me by ~3% in raw time, the bastich! (just kidding, Ted, if you're reading!).

htny

Are you buying a car specifically or primarily for club racing, or is it mostly a 2nd/3rd road/DE car?